# Failing all around **URL:** \ **Category:** The Nine Hammers Tavern - General Chat\ **Created:** [December 18, 2021, 4:26pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145 "2021-12-18T16:26:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JSampson](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/jsampson/32/3148_2.png) [@JSampson](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/JSampson)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 7:40pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/41 "2021-12-20T19:40:28Z")
@toddsdonald The new calendar allows you to add workouts - I add warm-ups and mix it up with yoga or something like Ignitor or GCN Ready, Steady, Go or sometimes GCN Minimal Time, Max Efforts. Coach Mac write a great post a few months ago on warm-ups. They are definitely more personalized and probably the reason why they leave it up to the rider to choose what option fits best for them. > [@From the Coaches: Why you need a proper Warm-Up](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/from-the-coaches-why-you-need-a-proper-warm-up/6669): > > Most of us have learned that we need some time to “warm up the engine” before starting into harder efforts. And anyone who has watched a time trial stage of any major cycling race has seen the pros ticking away on a trainer before they start. So what exactly is going on here? It turns out there are quite a few factors involved here. Blood flow. At rest, your body isn’t sending much blood to your legs. Instead, a large amount of it is going to your digestive system, especially if you have … As far as over 50 plans - generally the 2:1 option is where you want to be. ---
**Author:** ![CPT\_A](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/cpt_a/32/15342_2.png) [@CPT\_A](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/CPT_A)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 7:59pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/42 "2021-12-20T19:59:26Z")
> [@toddsdonald](#): > > So for now, following workouts designed for a 20 year old, the suffering is substantial @toddsdonald Genuine question, aside from the warm-up/cooldown aspects - which I’d argue are as important to 20-30’s as to us “veterans”, they just don’t know it - on what are you basing this? I suffer immensely in my SUFF workouts. Racing in my 20s-30s my 20min was probably around 315w @ 70kg, whereas today I’m 53, (MUCH) less fit, and coming back from about 20 years away, so continuing to drop weight and build back up from 250w FTP. Would seem to me that since SUFF bases workout intensity off my CURRENT 4DP numbers, that my system is being stressed, but no more than I can handle for my age/weight/level. I shudder to think of trying to run SUFF with a 315w FTP, but it’s not asking me to do that? Maybe someday. There are any number of HIIT type programs available to athletes in all sorts of activities, it’s simply a training tool and technique. How would it be limited to 20-30 year olds if it takes current fitness into account? ---
**Author:** ![toddsdonald](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/toddsdonald/32/5330_2.png) [@toddsdonald](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/toddsdonald)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/43 "2021-12-20T22:02:23Z")
Hi CPT, I suppose what I meant by that is there are particular training needs that older riders need. Regardless of the 4DP profile and the targets, the training is vastly different for veteran riders. If you’ve not read it yet, (or listened on Audible), I would highly recommend Joel Friel’s Fast after Fifty and Ride Inside. It would be super cool if SYSTM offered training plans for older riders. The training plans that are offered are generic and although I am sure they are beneficial, they seem better tailored to very young riders. The dead giveaway is the lack of warmup and cooldown, which are two of the most critical things an older cyclist should do. Jumping on a bike and spinning for a few minutes that BAM into FTP territory and beyond for intervals is crazy. I’m not training for the Tour De France or Olympics and I’m not 25 anymore. When I ride “for real” e.g. outdoors it takes me at least 5 miles to warm-up and another few miles to cool down. ---
**Author:** ![ErickT](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/erickt/32/7168_2.png) [@ErickT](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/ErickT)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 2:55am UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/44 "2021-12-21T02:55:17Z")
> [@toddsdonald](#): > > Jumping on a bike and spinning for a few minutes that BAM into FTP territory and beyond for intervals is crazy. I’m 51 and it never feels like that or thought of it that way. Some are definitely shorter than others likely due to the duration of the workout.And, others are harder due to when the workout was created. Being time-crunched the warm up and cool down fit my schedule. ---
**Author:** ![ErickT](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/erickt/32/7168_2.png) [@ErickT](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/ErickT)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 2:56am UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/45 "2021-12-21T02:56:38Z")
> [@JSampson](#): > > I add warm-ups and mix it up with yoga or something like Ignitor or GCN Ready, Steady, Go or sometimes GCN Minimal Time, Max Effort These are good suggestions that I have done when I have extra time on my hands. The mobilise yoga series usually hit the spot! ---
**Author:** ![ErickT](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/erickt/32/7168_2.png) [@ErickT](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/ErickT)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 3:07am UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/46 "2021-12-21T03:07:45Z")
Yesterday the plan had 4-shorts with Joey. I turned off Erg mode and loosely followed the targets in level 2. Made 2/3 of the way through before feeling drained. BTW, the 2nd short is awesome! Didn’t sleep well again last night. Today I did Morning Yoga, Recovery A, Strength Level 2, and some foam rolling. Found some cramping in my quads and calves that I missed/overlooked. Hoping to get better and more sleep tonight. ---
**Author:** ![toddsdonald](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/toddsdonald/32/5330_2.png) [@toddsdonald](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/toddsdonald)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 3:12am UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/47 "2021-12-21T03:12:51Z")
Interesting. Its hard for me. I’m almost 56. I’d love it if there was a geriatric training program for people like me. It could be same as it is now, but tailored to old people with a longer warmup and cool down. I’d rather have 15 minutes of warmup with 30 minutes of hard effort and 15 minutes of cool down in a 60 minute session, instead of 4 to 7 minutes of warmup followed by 50+ minutes of suffering because I’m not warmed up, followed by a 3 minute cool down and getting off the bike still sweating at 150 bpm. ---
**Author:** ![Heretic](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/heretic/32/2329_2.png) [@Heretic](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/Heretic)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 6:32am UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/48 "2021-12-21T06:32:29Z")
I am in my late 60s and I have started playing around with the number of rest days I need. Sometimes, I do all or part of an Open workout if I feel I need more of a warmup. ---
**Author:** ![genolan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/genolan/32/2079_2.png) [@genolan](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/genolan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 8:17am UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/49 "2021-12-21T08:17:06Z")
@ErickT I’ll look out for Four Shorts by Joey but I wouldn’t have thought that at 60-70% FTP it should be draining. Something is definitely not right. My suggestion would be to ditch the plan and take a complete break for a week or two. Come back only when you’re good and ready ---
**Author:** ![AkaPete](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/akapete/32/10384_2.png) [@AkaPete](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/AkaPete)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 10:25am UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/50 "2021-12-21T10:25:01Z")
> [@toddsdonald](#): > > I’m almost 56. I’d love it if there was a geriatric training program for people like me. It could be same as it is now, but tailored to old people with a longer warmup and cool down. I’d rather have 15 minutes of warmup with 30 minutes of hard effort and 15 minutes of cool down in a 60 minute session In every post, you say it’s about your age. I suspect it’s about you personally. I’m almost 58 and find the workouts as structured just fine as do many older than me. Every individual has their own needs no matter what their age. That’s not good or bad—just a fact about the variety of people and bodies in the world. You also say that you insist on riding the plans as designed instead of adjusting them for your personal needs. That’s crazy! SYSTM is a mass market internet product that costs a few dollars a month. It obviously can’t customize every plan for each individual rider’s personal needs. You could spend $50+ a month and get a coach to write you a custom plan. Or you could just make the adjustments you know you need. Many users do exactly that because they know themselves better than any mass market internet product ever will or can. Many have shared the adjustments they make in the comments above. I strongly suggest that you stop complaining about your age, be realistic with yourself about the warmup and cooldown that your body needs, and make appropriate adjustments to the workouts—or hire a coach (through SYSTM or otherwise) to give you a truly customized plan. ---
**Author:** ![CPT\_A](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/cpt_a/32/15342_2.png) [@CPT\_A](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/CPT_A)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 12:44pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/51 "2021-12-21T12:44:56Z")
+1 @AkaPete Didn’t want to come down on anyone, but that was my earlier point: @toddsdonald talks about an adaptive, HIIT program being designed “for 20 year olds”, when it seems like all you’re really saying is “needs more warmup and cooldown time”, which is totally under your own control. ---
**Author:** ![leebo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f0a364/32.png) [@leebo](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/leebo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 12:51pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/52 "2021-12-21T12:51:43Z")
I for one like the fact that the warmup and cool downs are relatively short. I can add in my own as I see fit without having to skip forward to the good stuff and/or feel like I’m quitting out too soon. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Brian\_M](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/sir_brian_m/32/268_2.png) [@Sir\_Brian\_M](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/Sir_Brian_M)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 12:57pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/53 "2021-12-21T12:57:06Z")
I’m 56, the warmups seem just fine to me. Not sure if walking the dog and climbing 2 flights of stairs to get back inside counts as additional warmup. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Brian\_M](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/sir_brian_m/32/268_2.png) [@Sir\_Brian\_M](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/Sir_Brian_M)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 1:00pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/54 "2021-12-21T13:00:56Z")
One thing lacking in these discussions is what your typical week’s workouts look like. How many hours, cumulative TSS etc. I don’t know we could definitely suggest overtraining merely hearing your symptoms. ---
**Author:** ![ErickT](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/erickt/32/7168_2.png) [@ErickT](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/ErickT)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 2:20pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/55 "2021-12-21T14:20:31Z")
> [@Sir\_Brian\_M](#): > > Not sure if walking the dog and climbing 2 flights of stairs to get back inside counts as additional warmup. Sounds like a warm up to me! ---
**Author:** ![ErickT](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/erickt/32/7168_2.png) [@ErickT](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/ErickT)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 2:28pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/56 "2021-12-21T14:28:51Z")
> [@toddsdonald](#): > > I’d love it if there was a geriatric training program for people like me My opinion here. @toddsdonald 1. To be to the point, I think this type of mindset could be holding you back. When I find myself thinking this way, it is time to re-visit the removing obstacles MTP lesson. 2. It takes time to adapt. This to me sounds like a good goal to add to your MTP workbook. It may be more of a Mt. Agonia than Mt. Sufferlandria, a goal never the less. Adapting to shorter warm ups may take time, and will pay back huge for cyclocross, short track, crits, showing up late to the group ride, squeezing a quick outdoor ride in before going to a social event. Be kind and patient to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![ErickT](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/erickt/32/7168_2.png) [@ErickT](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/ErickT)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 2:30pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/57 "2021-12-21T14:30:59Z")
> [@Sir\_Brian\_M](#): > > One thing lacking in these discussions is what your typical week’s workouts look like. How many hours, cumulative TSS etc. I don’t know we could definitely suggest overtraining merely hearing your symptoms. Good point. This plan my weekly TSS has been in the 300s. I’ve done 500-1000 weeks in the past with no issues. ---
**Author:** ![ErickT](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/erickt/32/7168_2.png) [@ErickT](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/ErickT)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 2:38pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/58 "2021-12-21T14:38:26Z")
I appreciate all the suggestions without judgement. Things to do: 1. Medical appointment and blood work to rule out auto-immune issue, chronic low-level infection, chronic fatigue, nutrient absorption issue, other life stress, depression, something else medical 2. Back it off for a few weeks and take a physical and mental break from training. Don’t worry about how others may perceive it. The motivation and goal focus is clearly present. My competitive side won’t let me give up or quit. Something is getting in the way. 3. Be patient - this is the hardest part. I’ll share an update when I know more or can rule some things out. ---
**Author:** ![leebo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f0a364/32.png) [@leebo](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/leebo)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 2:40pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/59 "2021-12-21T14:40:32Z")
> [@ErickT](#): > > Don’t worry about how others may perceive it. Definitely this. Also, add: 1. Have some fun with it! Please do let us know how you get on, and take care. ---
**Author:** ![CPT\_A](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/cpt_a/32/15342_2.png) [@CPT\_A](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/CPT_A)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2021, 3:05pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145/60 "2021-12-21T15:05:59Z")
> [@ErickT](#): > > Things to do: > > 1. Medical appointment and blood work to rule out auto-immune issue, chronic low-level infection, chronic fatigue, nutrient absorption issue, other life stress, depression, something else medical > 2. Back it off for a few weeks and take a physical and mental break from training. Don’t worry about how others may perceive it. The motivation and goal focus is clearly present. My competitive side won’t let me give up or quit. Something is getting in the way. > 3. Be patient Well put @ErickT. Tape this to your mirror. Best wishes. 👍🏻 [Previous page](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145.md?page=2) [Next page](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/failing-all-around/15145.md?page=4)