# The end of Sufferfest/Wahoo X and sports science (a rant) **URL:** \ **Category:** SYSTM Software\ **Created:** [September 13, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510 "2023-09-13T19:38:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rearviewmirror](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/rearviewmirror/32/3754_2.png) [@Rearviewmirror](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/Rearviewmirror)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/1 "2023-09-13T19:38:44Z")
I am not quite sure how to put this, as I imagine there are a few amazing former Sufferfest employees still left at Wahoo, and to any of them, I want to extend my deepest thanks, appreciation and heartfelt gratitude for creating one of the best sporting communities I have ever been a part of. None of what is to come in the rest of this post is directed at you. However, I would ask you to please direct whoever is currently “in charge” to this post so they can witness first hand what turning a loyal customer into a detractor looks like. To the Couchlandrian corporate overlords who made the decision to [axe the entire sports science team](https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2023/09/zwift-increases-zwift-hub-price.html) (including Sir Neal Henderson) - do you even cycle bro? For many of us who have been here since the glorious days of The Sufferfest, the writing has been on the wall for a long time that Sufferfest was being quietly silenced and taken apart. However, the decision to literally remove sports science-informed design from a cycling training application is beyond mind boggling. I’m not sure who the bright spark is who decided that was a great idea, but I would recommend they take a basic product management course and pay particular attention during the “product-led growth” portion of the class. Sports science was not only a primary differentiator of WahooX over its competitors, it is also a delighter and for almost all users of the Sufferfest has become table stakes functionality. I have zero desire to purchase any Wahoo products in the future, and I very much hope that the orange company acquires Trainer Road and immediately hires the wonderful sports science minds that you deign to cast aside. Wahoo acquired one of the best sports science training platforms on the market, and has made a series of unbelievably inept decisions leading to the cratering of a high function team and company. I’m in shock at the wanton waste of human capital and phenomenal product talent. Whoever made this call should be unbelievably ashamed of themselves, and I can only hope they will eventually be held accountable as this terrible decision sparks a mass exodus. I will always be a Knight of Sufferlandria, and I will never forget the community that Sirs David, Neal, and Cody built. Shame on you. ---
**Author:** ![oldmannick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ad7895/32.png) [@oldmannick](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/oldmannick)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 5:24am UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/2 "2023-09-15T05:24:34Z")
The ability of this company to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory never ceases to amaze me. The financial position has obviously been fragile for sometime. The forum has been full of issues regarding RGT. Alas you have a product manufacturing company that has bought a software company…… ---
**Author:** ![MammothWagon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/mammothwagon/32/14821_2.png) [@MammothWagon](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/MammothWagon)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 2:07pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/3 "2023-09-15T14:07:55Z")
Yeah, I’m with ya on this. I have loved Suff for a long time, it was the first training I really encountered w/ my original KICKR v1. And for that reason, I have stuck w/ Wahoo X (even after giving Zwift a try). The training just “feels” better, probably b/c of the science team. But, it appears from a software standpoint, Zwift is making the right choices… ---
**Author:** ![jcolp](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/jcolp/32/18186_2.png) [@jcolp](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/jcolp)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 2:08pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/4 "2023-09-15T14:08:29Z")
Zwift was sleeping for a long time and taking things for granted, but have woken up. ---
**Author:** ![jmckenzieKOS](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/jmckenziekos/32/2135_2.png) [@jmckenzieKOS](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/jmckenzieKOS)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2023, 6:30pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/5 "2023-09-15T18:30:50Z")
One thing is that Z remains, mostly, a game platform. It just lost the contract for the UCI X games to MyWhoosh. Their improvements? Adding more ‘levels’, roads, and a few more worlds. The only thing going for it right now is the “ride with a bot” feature. I’ll stick to SYSTM for the foreseeable future. ---
**Author:** ![mserge](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/mserge/32/6805_2.png) [@mserge](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/mserge)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2023, 6:39am UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/6 "2023-09-16T06:39:03Z")
I fancy indieVelo over MyWhoosh! ---
**Author:** ![moose](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/moose/32/4149_2.png) [@moose](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/moose)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 1:27pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/7 "2023-09-19T13:27:21Z")
I think Sufferfest has/had an incredible core user base and that not relying on what made people remain was a giant waste. Marketing people always talk about customer retention, and Sufferfest was made of that. You came in for the structured workouts, you stayed forever for the community, the lore and the great humans behind it. 🙏 ---
**Author:** ![DavM](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/davm/32/21818_2.png) [@DavM](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/DavM)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/8 "2023-09-19T15:31:28Z")
It would be interesting to see some ballpark figures regarding the recruitment of new users to the app since the rebranding, as this was the main reason for the rebrand in the 1st place. (To attract new users and not scare them off with all the mention of SUF) I would hope that we haven’t lost more users than we’ve gained due to this. Although, the departure of our Chief Suffering Officer along with Neal, Dylan, Cody et al was a blow. Don’t get me wrong, I still love love love the app and all it offers, and I know I can never leave anyway. I also wonder what GvA is making of all this? Seething and grinding teeth somewhere no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![moose](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/moose/32/4149_2.png) [@moose](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/moose)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 4:12pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/9 "2023-09-19T16:12:53Z")
Maybe GvA has been fired and is now working at Zwift? 🤣🤣🤣 Or myWoosh… ---
**Author:** ![Joshua](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/joshua/32/11979_2.png) [@Joshua](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/Joshua)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 6:50pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/10 "2023-09-19T18:50:42Z")
To add to this thread, I’m on week 8 of my custom 12 week training plan put together by a Wahoo coach (who is awesome). I paid for 3 consultation sessions and I’ve had 2 so far. Then, at the end of week 7 I received this email: * * * Hi, We are writing to let you know that we have made the decision to discontinue the Wahoo Coaching program. If you are currently on a plan, this will still be available for you to follow via TrainingPeaks. We appreciate you may have been working with your coach for a long time and would like to keep training with them. Here is their contact details so you can continue training with them directly: _email hidden for the forum_ Thank you again for training with us at Wahoo coaching, * * * I don’t know what’s happening at Wahoo and I like their Systm platform but they seem to be cutting strings and after just paying for another year of Systm specifically so I could continue my coaching program I’m at a loss for what to do. Wahoo is feeling like they care about their users less and less. I have no idea what I’m supposed to do, if I’m to get a refund for my missing consultation call so I could pay my coach directly, or if the coach is still being paid to the end of my training plan. Some damage control in the form of information and a road plan to it’s users may be in order. ---
**Author:** ![Saulo\_Rozendo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/saulo_rozendo/32/14100_2.png) [@Saulo\_Rozendo](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/Saulo_Rozendo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 8:53pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/11 "2023-09-19T20:53:29Z")
Your rant is 100% spot on, sir. I mean… they created a JOYSTICK to attach to your bike handlebar. I mean… who tf wants a JOYSTICK when the race course goes 9% and your competition is shifting down? I’d rather bike for an hour learning from the experience of professional cyclists, and places with absolutely awesome views. But hey, at the end of the day, RADIO TOWER is more profitable. ---
**Author:** ![emacdoug](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/emacdoug/32/15557_2.png) [@emacdoug](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/emacdoug)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 10:14pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/12 "2023-09-19T22:14:48Z")
Here’s an update from Sir Mac Cassin > [@What will happen with SYSTM / SUF after the last round of layoffs?](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/what-will-happen-with-systm-suf-after-the-last-round-of-layoffs/23448/163): > > I assume this is a place looking for information AND kindness (in the middle of some suffering). If you think this re-post (from FB Sufferlandria group) doesn’t belong here for any reason, don’t hesitate to take it down (mods) or let me know) ---
**Author:** ![Rupert](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/rupert/32/22303_2.png) [@Rupert](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/Rupert)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 10:16pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/13 "2023-09-19T22:16:29Z")
Sorry I have been a bit quiet in here recently but I am here to say that Wahoo SYSTM content isn’t going anywhere and we have a few fun things coming your way over the next few months for new content and events! **Content to lookout for over the 23-24 Indoor Season** : - New On Locations in Italy, Spain and Germany - Inspiration Updates & releases - Pro Rides - Sufferfest remastering and new content I don’t want to go into the specifics and spoil the surprise but hopefully this gives you a taste of what’s to come. We also have awesome events and challenges incoming, look out for: - October’s Monthly Challenge: Technique and drills - November’s monthly Challenge: The Sufferfest - December’s Monthly Challenge: Keep on moving - The 2024 Wahooligan Tour I hope this helps provide more details on what we have in store for the near future and gives you all a lot of confidence that our dedication to bringing you entertaining and effective workouts, backed by sports science, is going nowhere! ---
**Author:** ![emacdoug](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/emacdoug/32/15557_2.png) [@emacdoug](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/emacdoug)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 10:20pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/14 "2023-09-19T22:20:41Z")
> [@Rupert](#): > > The 2024 Wahooligan Tour I was cheering with you every step of the way through your post… until this. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE rename it back to The Tour of Sufferlandria. Even if that means detours through RGT and OL and ProRides. PLEEEEEAASSSSSEEEE??? 🙏 🙏 🙏 🥺 🥺 🥺 ---
**Author:** ![moose](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/moose/32/4149_2.png) [@moose](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/moose)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 10:21pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/15 "2023-09-19T22:21:20Z")
Not gonna happen. ---
**Author:** ![jmckenzieKOS](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/jmckenziekos/32/2135_2.png) [@jmckenzieKOS](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/jmckenzieKOS)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2023, 10:44pm UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/16 "2023-09-19T22:44:58Z")
I agree. I’m not a Hooligan of any stripe. You lose a whole group of people by continuing to use this name, mainly in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Cordboard](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/cordboard/32/3093_2.png) [@Cordboard](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/Cordboard)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 2:05am UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/17 "2023-09-20T02:05:12Z")
The 2024 Tour can be called whatever you want to call it, but at a minimum the poster needs to be substantially better next year! I really like my own that I made for 2023 but don’t want to have to do it again… ---
**Author:** ![Glen.Coutts](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/glen.coutts/32/25318_2.png) [@Glen.Coutts](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/Glen.Coutts)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 2:32am UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/18 "2023-09-20T02:32:46Z")
![TWT_Poster_5000x7100](https://us1.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/uploads/thesufferfest/original/2X/e/e52a46bd792dd505fba2059a1b7ab51a4c0f479c.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Martin](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/flex020/user_avatar/wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/martin/32/3872_2.png) [@Martin](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/Martin)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 7:29am UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/19 "2023-09-20T07:29:01Z")
Excellent news @Rupert - thanks for this. More surprises are always fun. Looking fwd to them all, and the next fundraising tour for DPF. I’ve started carbo loading this morning. Wonder which stage Nine Hammers will be …. Its great having plans wot wot ---
**Author:** ![cjensen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@cjensen](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/u/cjensen)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2023, 9:20am UTC](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510/20 "2023-09-20T09:20:18Z")
I’m with you on that name - I wince a little every time they use it. There is nothing fun or edgy about the word hooligan. [Next page](https://wahoox.forum.wahoofitness.com/t/the-end-of-sufferfest-wahoo-x-and-sports-science-a-rant/23510.md?page=2)