Ok. Will fuel in the next FF!
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jmckenzieKOS already suggested this, but do the HM to validate numbers. Actually, the right way to do it is backwards. Do HM on say a Wednesday and then FF on Saturday, and use the HM numbers as targets. For me, in my last test (~2-3 months ago) I came within 3 Watts of each other, with FF numbers slightly below HM. I believe I clocked 265W for MAP and 213W for FTP in HM, and 260W for MAP and 210W for FTP in FF. I donât think I would have done this well in FF had I not done HM first.
Also, take a few packs of gummy bears (or your favorite sugar source) and stash them in the back pocket of your jersey. Every time the intensity goes down in these tests, eat one pack to keep you fueled. I happen to like Welsh.
Also drink water, gatorade, or whatever rocks your boat.
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Thanks, makes all sense, will do!
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If you do not fuel during outside rides, it is not clear to me that you should fuel for FF. In fact, I wonder if anybody should fuel at all after the start of the MAP session.
The idea of doing the 5 minute MAP segment before the 20 minute FTP segment is to try to make sure that you are only using your fat burning, not your your glycogen system during the FTP measurement.
If you fuel, you will get an a contribution from your glycogen system, and perhaps get a higher FTP number than you can sustain.
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Hm. I am not an expert or doctor, but always thought that you use Glycogen and Fatty acids at all intensities (that are still aerobic) - just to varying degrees. Fat Max is usually around the upper end of Zone 2 and from there the use of Glucose increases (absolute and relative). At threshold (FTP / Zone 4) there will be quite a bit of Glucose used (maybe 1 gram per minute at that intensity; in strong athletes could be 3-4gr, I am old and not very trained). So I do see a point of refueling, because at some point stored glycogen is used up and performance at threshold will be substantially impaired without Glucose. No?
I was thinking, that there would be enough glycogen stored for 70-80 minutes (I did a longer warmup and had to restart the FF after the Sprints because SYSTM crashed), but maybe I was depleted before or not properly refueld, I did a bunch of riding that week.
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What you say is true about the individual contributions during a ride.
Nonetheless, FF is statistically designed to isolate the contributions of those two components. This is done so that workouts can be designed to individually develop those components of your fitness profile.
Ideally, you want the glycogen stores to be exhausted so that the 20 minute segment tests only your ability to produce energy from your fat stores.
This is the reason why that abominable AC segment happens at the very end - you want to test your ability to recover.
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OK. So I guess that goal was accomplished. 
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Iâm sorry, but it doesnât make sense to me.
To my knowledge the idea of doing the 5 min. MAP test before the 20 min. threshold test is to remove some of your freshness so you do not over perform. Not to drain your body of energy. When the body primarily only uses body-fat it is basically LT1. We want to find LT2 (threshold power)
However, if you have a link to a scientific research project that describe your statement, I would be interested in reading it.
Carbs doesnât make you faster, but makes you going!
Again, why would you test to see what your body can perform when it is drained of energy?
Recover from fatigue and muscle glycogen storage (or what itâs called in English), not from overall lack of energy. By the way isnât that basically recovering of Wâ.
PS.
Everything Iâve written is in the best of regards.
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There are three basic energy systems Neuromuscular, Glycogen, and fat burning. To estimate one of your 4DP parameters you need to isolate the effects of the other parameters.
Hence, I never said that I want your body drained of energy, I said that you want the glycogen system drained of energy so that you could isolate and measure the effects of the fat-burning system.
My explanation has been given by the coaches as to the logic of the FF.
For more information about cycling energetics:
A five minute MAP session better not completely deplete your Glycogen stores or you are in serious trouble. What the five minute effort is supposed to measure is where you switch from being aerobic to anaerobic and at what level of effort your body makes this switch. The FTP effort is a combination of your bodyâs ability to use both power sources, Glycogen and fats and your liverâs abilities to recycle metabolites. The AC effort is to see where you can âhit the wallâ and keep going. the sprints are pure muscle power and depend on what is stored in your muscles for immediate use. At no point in Full Frontal are you using only fats to ride. Thatâs why there are programmed rests between the MAP, FTP, and AC to give your body a chance to recharge and somewhat recover. Half Monty does get into some pure fat utilization during the recovery prior to and during the constrainted effort section.
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Could you provide us with a link to the source, where Wahoo Sports Science gives this information according to Full Frontal test? I have never heard anything like that before in regards to 4DP.
The video you link to there, is explaining the three zone model which Inigo San Milan uses for his training approach. But that is completely different from the 4DP model approach, since itâs based on metabolic states, not on power zones.
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Power zones, 4DP, heart rate zones, RPE, etc. are all models/proxies for metabolic states.
Metabolic states are the reality, everything else is used because it is impractical to use metabolic states during a workout, ride, or event. You could use a portable lactate meter, but I doubt the vast majority of people would do it. During a race it would be impractical.
The 4DP model is certainly not based on power zones. Power zones are based on FTP, and 4DP explicitly rejects that. 4DP is based on the coaches analysis of performance that is correlated with measurements of certain physical characteristics, and knowledge of metabolic states.
The coaches explanations, in my memory, were scattered in the comments, and not in one place.
If the FTP measurement is a measurement of your bodyâs ability to use both, why do we need to âtortureâ ourselves with a 5 minute MAP, and then a 20 minute FTP segment. You could just do them separately.
4DP is not a measure of metabolic states. It is a measure of how our muscles generate power across different efforts. Yes, Zone 2 is defined based on your metabolic state and the transition to Zone 3 is a transition from primary fat burning to primary carb burning and increase in lactic acid in your blood. But the 4DP metrics are not measured this way.
The goal for 4DP is to âto take into account the variation in how individual athletes produce power across a range of durations and intensities.â
As you can see from the names, they are based more on what muscles and oxygen levels you are using. Not your metabolic state.
NM âneuromuscular powerâ is pure, raw sprint.
AC âanaerobic capacityâ measures the ability of your muscles to recovery from hard anaerobic efforts.
MAP âmaximum aerobic powerâ is often compared with V02 max and is a measure of your aerobic ceiling where you move from aerobic efforts to anaerobic efforts.
FTP âfunctional threshold powerâ is measured in 4DP after the NM and MAP efforts with the purpose of fatiguing those muscles so they cannot be recruited and thus wonât affect the FTP power. It is not to put you into a fasted state, or change your metabolism, but instead to modify your muscle recruitment.
Athletes vary widely in muscular make-up which can over or under estimate FTP.
An athlete with a higher percentage of fast-twitch muscle fibers will generate higher NM and MAP scores, but those muscles fatigue quicker during endurance efforts. During a Ramp Test, an athlete with a high amount of fast-twitch muscle fibers may have their FTP overestimated. The 4DP test fatigues those muscles which helps to compensate for this difference and should provide a lower FTP score than that achieved in a traditional Ramp Test because those fast-twitch muscles are less accessible during the 20-minute portion of the 4DP.
An athlete with fewer fast-twitch muscle fibers and more slow-twitch muscle fibers will generate lower NM and MAP scores, but will often achieve the same or higher FTP scores in the 4DP than in a traditional RAMP test because the lesser amount of fast-twitch muscle fibers which have been fatigued by the NM and MAP portions. And because the end of a traditional Ramp Test also pushes into fast-twitch muscle territory.
Iâm out of time to add more to this. But you can read those articles and search through the forum to find that 4DP is a test of muscle make-up, muscle recruitment, and oxygen usage rather than metabolic states.
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You could, but not in one test and you have to massage any stand-alone FTP effort that is short of a full out to exhaustion effort. A twenty minute effort gets a 5 percent reduction and an eight minute 10 percent. By fatiguing the muscles you simulate in one effort and hourâs worth of effort. Placing the AC effort at the end reveals how fast your metabolism recovers from intense efforts. You could, in theory, put the sprints anywhere in the test, as they only rely on stored energy, but itâs best to get them out of the way first. Thereâs been several peer-reviewed testing protocols for gauging athletic performance and for most people, a 20 minute increasing effort to exhaustion test is adequate. Wahoo calls it Half Monty, everyone else calls it a ramp test. Full Frontal adds in two other parameters to round out where the athlete best performance is and where their worst is.
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Thanks for the clarification. Great write-up.
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The metabolism happens in the muscles. So 4DP is a measure of metabolism. Muscle make-up, muscle recruitment, and oxygen usage is part of metabolism.
Where else would the metabolism happen?
I do not understand what you wrote.
If a 20 minute test to exhaustion is enough, why do we need to do both in the same test. In fact the 20 minute test in FF is a test to exhaustion.
With that argument you could related 4DP to just about anything.
The length of the efforts in FF are not directly measuring your metabolism. Maybe itâs indirectly related to metabolism like a second-cousin, but not directly.
If youâre poorly fueled or in a fasted state it can have an effect. But if youâve properly fueled your metabolism is not being measured or having a direct effect.
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if the 20 minute test were to exhaustion, you wouldnât be able to spin the cranks. Half Monty is a ramp test to exhaustion with a recovery and then a constrainted effort to validate your cTHR.
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