HR zone inconsistency

Training
21

Thanks for the detailed reply.

My routine was:
Stop every 40-50 miles for a 15-20 min break. Have:

  • a milkshake of sorts (preferably protein)
  • something ‘real’ - usually sandwiches early in the ride (first 100 miles), later things like flapjacks and malt loaf when bread is harder to eat.
  • fill up water bottles with water / lucozade (alternate at stops).

Have an energy bar on the bike half way between stops. First pair of water bottles for the day have electrolyte tabs in them to avoid cramps. The proper stops tend to become more frequent later on - down to 30 miles apart by the time I’m around 200 miles in.

Issues are: I struggle to eat energy bars and real food after 100 miles, and by 200+ it’s near impossible. The bar on the bike will often take about 20 minutes to eat - small bite, chew, chew, chew, take sip of water, swirl it around, try swallow, chew, chew, chew, repeat water, swallow. Phew. Catch breath. Recuperate. Next bite…

If I feel I’m about to bonk, I stop, have a bar / bite of malt loaf, wait 5 minutes, get going, and I’m ok. I used to carry a couple of gels with me for this purpose, but I’ve got out of the habit, and it hasn’t been an issue.

Hence the tailwind - I thought it could supplement the energy intake once I started struggling to eat. I’ve kept the milkshake and real food at stops as is, but have reduced the energy bar intake. But I think what it does is provide just enough that I don’t feel like I’m bonking, but don’t have enough energy to really put any effort in on hills. I’m going to try stick to my original plan a bit more, and when things get dire, put tailwind in the water so that it’s only in the last few sections that I’m relying on it.

We’ll see how that goes…

And this:

I’m embarrassed at how many times I have HAULED THE WEIGHT of all that needed for long rides, but FAILED TO EAT IT! :roll_eyes:

Hell yes - I’ve carried energy bars all the way through a 1,000km ride up 15,000m of climbing. Man, it’s annoying.

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22

Think of it this way, the more you eat, the less weight you have to propel forward on the bicycle.

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23

Yeah, similar for me with bars later in rides, especially if the stomach has started to feel unhappy at all. Perpetuem started right away, first bottles, and continued from then on has worked to avoid most of that. And for me, has made the bars much less necessary. I tend to bring them more for the satisfaction of chewing something solid for a change, but really, the Perpetuem seems to have reduced the craving a little bit. I do also carry Perpetuem tablets along many times, (and sometimes even use them!), They do provide that chewing satisfaction just a little, but they are mostly sucked on till dissolved, which takes a while and it requires too many of them and too much time to eat them to use as the main source.

One thought about your method, have you calculated at least roughly how many calories you are taking on per hour? It might be that you are overwhelming your system with too much to process, or it might be just the opposite? I can’t even guess which direction is more likely the case, if at all, but having an idea how much all that adds up to might give you some hint of how to modify it. I’ve often seen 200 calories per hour tossed around as a guide, but there is variation from person to person, obviously.
I’ve also learned that for me, it is too late to start eating at 40-50 miles. I’m already in the hole, at that point, and even though I don’t FEEL bad, my body isn’t going to be able to process enough to catch up if I’m continuing to ride and deplete the tank. All it can do is TRY to keep me from totally running out of gas, but it’s really inevitable that it will.

When I first started using Perpetuem (powder, mixed into my water bottle), I tended to wait to add it to my 3rd and 4th bottles, thinking that I didn’t need it until after more than 2 hours, or even close to 3 hours. But that was based on a misunderstanding on my part of HammerNutrition directions for the product. Once I realized this and started using it in the first bottles, I have actually found better success staying fed and satisfied and usually sustaining at least decent power late into rides. Failures have been mostly my own tendency to delay drinking until I’m thirsty, which is always too late.

I don’t ever do any rides as long as the ones you are doing, probably never will because my comfort on the bike generally is getting tested by 100-ish miles and nearly 7 hours on the saddle.
More power to you for doing it!

24

Hmm… something about the laws of physics is escaping me… :slight_smile:

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25

There are two sugar transporters that bring sugar into the blood stream. One is for glucose, the other is for fructose. Each can transport about 60 grams per hour. So with the right mix you can consume 120 grams/hours.

There is some research that places that limit higher. Anything above that will sit in your stomach with possible unpleasant side effects. You also need to train your stomach to take in those higher quantities.

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26

There’s a bunch of science on sugars. Here’s something to ‘chew’ on: maltodextrin and glucose use the same transport. So, in a mix, better to use maltodextrin than glucose as the former has easier to use energy.
As to Tailwind, use it with caution. It contains twice the salts and can easily tip the scales of stomach upset .

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27

I know this thread is old, but I felt like an update might be useful.

Since posting this, I rested for a few weeks, and had an attempt at a hilly 600km ride, as a tester for my Mt Sufferlandria quest (referenced on this thread in a vain attempt to get more mental fortitude in going through with it). It didn’t go well - as before, 180km in, I hit a wall, physically and mentally, and gave up.

So I cancelled my ride, and did another 600 instead, after another month of taking it easy. This time managed to finish it, but discovered that it’s the Tailwind causing the problems. On the first day (320km, 5000m climbing) I slowly found myself getting more and more bloated, and eventually stopped on a hill, absolutely bonking. Within a minute, I’d hurled what felt like 10 litres of liquid, and immediately, felt vastly improved. Leaving Tailwind, and going back to alternating Lucozade & water made a minor improvement, and I managed to finish the day. On the second day (much flatter), although I was significantly pooped from the day before, I felt notably better, and finished without any problems. And without any Tailwind. (fwiw, heart rate never made it above 150, and average HR was low enough that Strava told me this effort is lower than my 3 week average. How many of you have had that message after completing 280km? :rofl:)

So I think the HR issues above weren’t that - they’re just fatigue as @Coach.Neal.H said. The unprecedented lack of energy issues I think are related to Tailwind. It seems to sit in my stomach, and even though I’m eating other stuff as well, it does something to stop me absorbing enough energy.

Back to the drawing board on nutrition, then. Or rather, back to my previous (flawed, but workable) regime, and see if I can find something else to improve calorie intake toward the back end of long days.

HammerGel seems like a potential option.

Thanks again for all the replies & advice. It’s really useful seeing other viewpoints and experiences.

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28

@nicktick I have had success with ScratchLabs products including their cluster maltodextrin product, electrolyte mix and bars.

I also like UnTapped maple syrup instead of gels. It is much better for my stomach. YMMV but good luck finding the right solution!

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29

I’ve used Honey Stinger gels, but switched to a mix of that and Maurten. If I use one Maurten 320 or one 160 and a couple gels I feel good. But if I substitute two 160’s for a 320 it seems to make my stomach feel bloated and full. I found that both the 160 and 320 have about the same amount of salt. So if I have two 160’s I’m getting more than twice the salt of a 320 despite the same number of carbs. And that extra salt seems to make a big difference.

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30

Very strange that that happened. I just looked at the ingredients on the Tailwind and there doesn’t seem to be anything that would block update. main ingredients are dextrose and cane sugar just like so many other products. Maybe too electrolyte heavy and you’re not a salty sweater?

Regardless, everyone is different, very clearly it didn’t agree with you so very good that you figured that out!

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31

Just a thought, try it more dilute?

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32

Thanks for the feedback on Tailwind, @nicktick
I’m not surprised at all, frankly, that you had that result and figured it out.
I know many don’t buy in, but I’m STILL very sold on Hammer Nutrition’s approach, even though there are MANY of their products I’ve never tried and probably won’t, mostly because I haven’t seen the need of some of the more expensive and elaborate items.
What I DO use from them are the following, in order of when I started using them:

  1. HammerGel, purchase in 26serving bottles, carry a flask of it on EVERY RIDE since forever (or WHENEVER in the early 2000’s that it was introduced to me at a race.) I vividly remember the first time I used a few single-serving packs of HammerGel on the most brutal MTB race course I’ve probably done, the Potts Mtn Escape, in Virginia mountains. Absolutely ugly start that goes straight up a jeep trail and climbs 800’ in the first mile, and close to 2000’ by the time it turns downward. After that, plenty more climbing but some of the scariest downhill twisty singletrack I had done at that early stage of my mountain biking history. HammerGel enabled me to finish without a bonk, a first for me at the time. I was convinced.
    I’ve tried some others occasionally and never had great results. Often have had stomach upset. Tried Gu, Honey Stinger, PowerBar bars and gels, maybe others rarely but can’t remember for sure. ALWAYS been happy with HammerGel gels, to the degree that I use them enough (can’t blame them for my too frequent abuse of myself by not eating!)
    For the carbs, HammerGel is my go to.

  2. Clifbars. (edit: NOT a Hammer product.) Definitely just a sideshow part for me. I carry them often, have eaten them on rides or hikes for maybe a little longer than HammerGel stuff, but it’s a love-hate relationship. Many of them have given me little help, sometimes even a little harm, upsetting my stomach. My absolute FAVORITES were their Coffee Collection flavors, Chocolate Espresso and Caramel Cappucino, if I recall the names right. These were a total hit with my wife and me, and we were so unhappy when they discontinued those flavors. They were the easiest on my stomach off ALL their bars.

  3. Perpetuem tablets and powder. For about 3 or 4 years now, I’ve done Perpetuem, and gotten better in my understanding of how to use it, and it is my go to fuel now. I mix a serving with each 23oz insulated water bottle for most rides outdoors, unless they are less than 2 hours. Most are several hours, up to about 7 hours on the longer ones. It never upsets my stomach, always tastes good to me, and the steady intake just WORKS for me. I eat bars mainly just for something to chew on, but rarely feel a real need for them if I’ve maintained the Perpetuem intake. The tablets, while not practical for constant fuel because they take time to chew and dissolve, do allow me to supplement the drink with fuel when it’s cool enough that I don’t drink as much and therefore miss out on some fuel.

  4. Hammer Recoverite. This is my go to recovery fuel. A serving (or more sometimes after extra long rides) mixed with water is an excellent help getting what my body needs to start the recovery process. A good meal is hopefully to follow before too long. Hammer recommends within an hour, which isn’t always doable so I sometimes up the Recoverite amount, sometimes just start snacking heavily.

  5. (EDITED to add this last one, thanks to @jmckenzieKOS for this reminder of something I’ve used for years and don’t want to be without it!) Hammer FIZZ (grape has become my favorite, but also used and like mango flavor.) This provides electrolytes, perks up plain water in my bottles, and works alongside Perpetuem in the water very nicely. I use the grape flavor FIZZ with OrangeVanilla OR StrawberryVanilla Perpetuem powder.

Most important of all these things to me is that the Hammer products just sit well on my stomach and give me quality nourishment.

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33

Dextrose and Cane Sugar are THE SAME THING. You need to mix in fructose or maltodextrin to maximize energy intake. Try Skratch super high-carb sport energy drink, Hammer Perpetuem, or any drink that has a mixture of glucose/fructose and maltodextrin. I use a mix of Skratch hydration Lemon-Lime and Perpetuem Fizz Lime in my first bottle and Half-Evil Black Cherry in the second. Add Hammer Gel Montana Huckleberry twice an hour. I don’t run out of energy and I don’t get gut rot.

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34

I forgot to add that Hammer product. I use FIZZ in EVERY BOTTLE, all the time. Love how it gives some life to the water and provides the essential electrolytes (supplementing with Endurolytes when extra is needed, as it was for me on a long gravel ride today.)

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35

They are not the same thing, Dextrose is the name for a right handed glucose molecule, the left handed version doesn’t occur naturally and is indigestible. Cane sugar is mostly sucrose a disaccharide composed of 1 molecule of dextrose(r-glucose) and 1 of fructose.

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36

I second both Scratch and UnTapped products. Scratch is my primary for liquids onboard, and UnTapped for solids. UnTapped’s stroopwaffeln are also wicked good.

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37

I have a LONG history with blood sugar isues, and that definition comes from a World renowned organization list of alternate names for second level sugars. However, this doesn’t matter as you need to use combinations of sugars and maltodextrin to reach maximum sugar uptake.

38

Just a comment on how everyone is different: I absolutely swear by Tailwind and can’t tolerate anything else.

Weird :grinning:

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39

There’s a saying in the real world: Your Mileage May Vary. This applies especially to sports nutrition. What works fantastically for me may be detrimental to you. I can’t tolerate most nutrition with the first ingredient as any form of refined sugar. I can tolerate and actually use maltodextrin. Others will become ill if they consume maltodextrin. I can tolerate gels where I know two riders who become violently ill and vomit if they consume even a half a gel.

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40

totally agreed! But not maximized and blocking uptake are two different beasts. Things like the Skratch super high carb will get you that bit extra (“This one goes up to 11”), but lower tech carbs i think oftn will still work fine for most people for most use cases. If it agrees with your gut, even a handfull of gummy bears should be fine. meaning, i think there’s gotta be something else about tailwind that doesn’t agree with the OP!

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