I can understand some people over achieving on HM but surely by the way it is tested, FF should set up achievable limits - for most sessions, most of the time.
By definition, you’ve proven you can do 5 full minutes at MAP and followed it up with 20 minutes at FTP on tired legs. Hardly any session gets close to that effort in a single repeat.
I’m sure the issues are going to be down to cumulative fatigue affecting subsequent training sessions.
5 years ago I gave up cycling a few weeks after my very first FTP test. It was basically an extension of this overall problem. Somehow I’d nailed the TrainerRoad 2x8min FTP test and then some changes at work/home meant I wasn’t getting enough rest. It wasn’t immediately noticeable but a few weeks later I was just totally burnt out and failing every session and basically through with getting on the bike at all if real training was going to be this horrible.
I would highly recommend speaking to one of the SUF coaches in the ‘chat to a coach’ service now available. There maybe something we’re missing here.
Ok - maybe Rookie is one of those exceptions! 3x10mins at roughly FTP plus spikes above it does look tough if you’re on brand new numbers. Hopefully there was a rest day before it! I did FF yesterday so will try it soon and will maybe be back here eating my words!!
I do think some sessions (e.g. 9H) are actually impossible on brand new, accurate numbers. But vast majority should be doable as and when they appear in training plans.
For me it is sessions with either multiple MAP intervals or 4 to 5 long threshold intervals with MAP spikes. The Rookie and Angels both did me in!
Maybe I’m just very good at the FF format. I can do a single MAP interval with recovery for a single long FTP interval. To me that feels less daunting than some of the MAP workouts.
For me at least I don’t believe it’s from fatigue, otherwise I don’t think I could perform on the FF tests and other rides where I feel consistently strong. Some SUF workouts I nail every time on new numbers too eg. GOAT, Power Station, Attacker, Defender. All pretty hard, but achievable at 100%. But others are insane, like Nine Hammers and It Seemed Like Thin Air mash-up. I realise many people struggle with those, so maybe they really are a bit too hard on freshly nailed 4DP numbers.
Thought I’d share an experience. I use direto & iPad and did FF. Something went totally haywire with the system & provided ftp & MAP numbers ewhich were way beyond expectations. As a result, I had same experience. Did a HM and those numbers made more sense. Never figured out what happened. There lots of good input through this thread, but wanted to share what happened in case you had similar issue.
Yes I agree, otherwise the whole process would be flawed. But I’m starting to think that the resultant workouts are inevitably going to end up slightly too hard or too easy for some individuals. I think for me they are just a bit too hard on average. It’s taken me a while to realise that, but I think a little correction to the intensity of certain workouts will make them fine. I would be lucky to get halfway through Nine Hammers at 100% but might just make it through to the end at 90%.
Before my full frontal, I was finishing sessions relatively comfortably even though I had done half monty half way through. For the hard sessions, I started increasing the intensity to 105%, 110%, 115%, 120% by the time my full frontal came around. So I was finishing the hard sessions knowing full well that I had done a hard session. The % increase was dictated by my HR, and making sure I was at least in the right HR zone, and not 20 bpm below where they wanted me to be.
The full frontal was done well, and I knew I could beat the targets as it was based on the previous results.
I did Butter today, and it was tough, but I finished it. I find my HR is fine (it never goes very high at the best of times), but my legs get that lactic acid burn, and my lungs are gasping well before my HR rises. Oddly, if I do a long zone 2 ride and I get HR creep, my HR will go up over 150 and my legs/heart feel fine. But 150 HR when I get there quickly from a MAP or AC effort and I’m gasping for air.
Either way, lots of good ideas in this thread. I have two long Z2 rides this weekend and a recovery week. I’m hopeful I’ll get to the point I can get 80-90% of the way through the tough sessions when it picks up again in 10 days time. Failing at 50% complete is not great for confidence!
Wow, it sounds like your 4DP numbers must have jumped up massively on your last FF test. To go from smashing out sessions at up to 120% intensity to suddenly failing sessions halfway through is a major difference! For me it was more subtle than that. I was already seriously struggling to scrape through hard MAP sessions at 100% before my last FF (sometimes needing to dial it down near the end) and then with a modest uplift in numbers (+10W FTP, +4W MAP, +28W AC) it pushed me over the edge and I started failing from about halfway in the hardest sessions and was finding the endurance sessions fairly hard going.
My Mt Sufferlandria for the year is to hit 300w FTP. LONG way to go, and any gains now are tough gains and small. Ideally I’ll also drop about 15kg as well over the next 8 months so my w/kg goes up substantially.
Thanks for sharing Martin. I think your issue is that you have just made huge rapid gains getting up off the couch and now you are feeling the shock of a BIG step change in all your target power numbers. In your shoes I would just back off the intensity enough to finish the workouts in one piece and then gradually increase again when you get too comfortable. Pretty much like you did before ramping up from 105-120%, only starting from a lower point this time.
I’m certainly no expert, but I would have thought making your workouts more achievable would be more productive at this point in your journey than excessive suffering! Good luck hitting your 300W target. That’s one of my goals for this year too!
Actually yes, it is possible to go too hard on various intervals of FF. More specifically the 7 second sprints. If you need to spool up your sprint it could result in numbers higher than you can achieve in a workout such as violator. The other intervals are supposed to be ridden as hard as you can barely sustain.
Subsequent workouts may be difficult or at times impossible where they target one of your weaknesses. But if we could nail every workout, there would be no challenge.
Challenge only exists when we push beyond what we can achieve. And we need workouts that help us get there.
I think it is possible to get external factors unrealistic.
For example, I do triathlons and always vomit straight back up nutrition if I take it before about 40 minutes. That is after a swim of 30 to 60 minutes with no nutrition intake.
I’ve done FF with optimum nutrition but this is unrealistic for me.
Similarly I’ve done FF when it’s cold indoors and the resultant targets are not possible if it is hot.
Hence my preference is to do FF in similar environmental conditions to that with which I will actually train during the videos and not unrealistic for day to day training.
