It’s debatable if I went too hard. If I want to go all out for 5 minutes (for a KOM for example), then that’s the pace that I would have. I even accelerate in the last 2 minutes (slightly). If I’m still able to walk away from my bike in the end, I didn’t go hard enough.
Unclear how to work more on recovering from intervals. More detailed instructions needed. Just do Half as easy a bunch of times? I heard that workout has a lot of recovery.
Well, my MAP was set in a previous FF, while also going at 95% of my max.
I don’t think you should stand for the 5 or 20minute efforts because they are supposed to be tests of maximal and steady state aerobic capacity. When you stand and start churning at low cadence you are recruiting additional muscles, which is a test of anaerobic capacity.
You should aim to pedal at whatever your normal cadence is for the 5 and 20 minute efforts if you cadence drops dramatically you start recruiting non-aerobic energy systems.
What I normally do for the MAP section is somewhat similar to what Sir @JSampson mentioned, go in with the first 2-1/2 minutes right at the MAP and for the last 2-1/2 minutes, ramp it up by 10-20W and hold on for dear life.
As for the 20-minutes FTP section, I would do about 5 minutes right on the FTP number and then increase the power numbers by 10W or so every 5 or 10 minutes.
I did my third FF today (producing best ever results)… I’m particularly pleased to have found what appears to be an effective strategy for the sprints at the start - I’d always found the combination of having to shift gears and the shortness of the efforts to be limiting so today decided to shift and drop my cadence in the final 30s before the sprint. I then increased my cadence to something approaching my usual 85-95rpm just before the gun, then hit my peak by ramping cadence up to max. It seemed to do the trick.
As usual, I still wanted my mum at the end of the MAP and AC efforts though.
Third winter with SYSTM, I think, but for whatever reason I haven’t done a FF since Jan 2023. Since then I trained well and got my numbers up via HM, doing the RideLondon 100-mile ride in May 23 and 24. This year I’ve been distracted, training and riding less and exhausted by work, life and getting older. As this autumn has dragged on I’ve been pretty sure my SYSTM numbers are just too outdated. Today, after a week of pretty decent sleep, I tried FF – and just could not hack it, mentally or physically.
I tried to aim for the targets, which were based on 4DP numbers from last spring, and while I sprinted fine I was cooked 1 min into the MAP section. I tried the FTP section and similarly didn’t have it in the head or the legs. Gave up. I felt a long way from the guy who powered through Suffering in the winters of 22 and 23.
So what now? I adjusted my MAP and down manually to something more realistic, as I want to be able to do workouts and not avoid the hard stuff. Is it HM time and then some kind of plan? I feel a bit lost – but my subscription just renewed so I’m in for this winter at least. Thanks.
@gafferbee Shake it off - it wasn’t your day. Yes, just do Half Monty for now and work from wherever you are. Note that you don’t have to train at your exact numbers to realize gains and you are much better off being under threshold than even slightly over.
Thanks. I’ve done Half Monty enough to know it’s much more achievable in my current state. I’ll do that as soon as I can and will pick a plan off the back of those numbers. (Am also doing some strength/PT training in Jan at a local gym, so hopefully that will help.)
@gafferbee Great - I am a big fan of strength and mobility and it keeps me in the game for racing and general riding. Note that you will suffer a little bit on the bike when that starts but just stay with it and it will get better.
Managed to successfully trick my brain ahead of this Full Frontal morning.
Before a FF, I usually go to bed scared for my life, don’t sleep and then struggle through the next day.
This time, before I went to bed, I gave myself permission to bail either before starting or during the warmup if I wasn’t feeling great, and do a zone 2 ride instead. No issues sleeping, woke feeling great and smashed my best Full Frontal ever. Such a simple mindset shift, no doubt it wont work next time
I am absolutely rueing FF day. Every time! However, decided to do it spontaneously one and a half week ago when I read the post on it being a part of the January challenge, and although it turned my face rather green, I did not have to dread the day weeks and days in advance. Also decided to not have any expectations, just a baseline benchmark for 2025.
I must say it worked out pretty well. I was fortunate to have a HM result from back in September to go by for pacing, which turned out to be quite similar having done nothing structured in the meantime. Felt like I had just a liiiiiittle bit left in the tank for both MAP and FTP, which I think means I paced it just right.
Now I have loaded a MAP block to get back some structure and “raise the ceiling”. Was hoping 9H would be in there, but to my huge surprise it wasn’t so I need to add it, probably for the last day of the “on” weeks. It will be bittersweet, glorious suffering.
1st Full Frontal in almost 2 years, done totally on a spur-of-the-moment-whim late today. Hadn’t gotten outside as hoped, Garmin was recommending a Threshold workout, so I figured this was a good match.
I’ve never really dreaded the Full Frontal; it’s just another beating, after all.
I know we all want to do our best and get a solid and accurate reading since workouts will be based on it, so I get that. But I mainly just want some comparison numbers to see if what my Garmin EDGE 840 and FENIX 7S often find for an AutoDetected FTP scores are reasonably correct.
I’ve had both of these devices find my FTP anywhere from upper 180’s to upper 190’s for much of a year, but mainly low 190’s for the last 6-8 months. They also find my Lactate Threshold to be 149-153bpm consistently. So I’ve used 193W as my setting on Strava for awhile, and I’m very confident my Threshold is 153bpm because I’ve watched it closely enough on numerous rides to know that’s right about where my tipping point is.
BTW, today, the finding was 158bpm, which I think is too high, but I did sustain above 160 for over 10 minutes of the 20m effort, hitting 165 or above. Garmin has estimated my max as 166 and 167 many times recently.
So today, with little recent practice using Level Mode, I reread the article on getting best results on Full Frontal and then hopped on the KICKR Bike to hit it.
It WAS a SUFF-ering workout!
I did ok on the NM Sprints but didn’t even get ramped up very well on the first one, so I focused better on the 2nd one and felt it was close to a max effort.
The 5 minute MAP effort was a BEAST. I couldn’t get dialed in on the right gear for a little bit, so I was searching for almost a minute before I felt good about my gears, and then I tried to ignore time and stay focused on cadence and power. TIME DRAGGED.
I did manage to keep from fading badly, but only with great focus on my cadence/power, resisting more whenever the numbers dipped, and the interval finally came to an end. I felt good about what I figured I’d averaged, and knew it had taken a toll but I’d survived.
The recovery interval with the short walk off the bike went by too quickly, as I knew it would, but now I was feeling good about being “halfway” through the workout. (NAIVE!)
I played a bit with my gear choices during the recovery and decided I’d stay in my small ring, which would leave me in the small cogs in back, where the jumps stay close together best, and knew I wouldn’t need to go beyond my small “chainring.”
(The KICKR Bike is great in that regard, with the Wahoo App allowing me to configure any gears I want, so I ride a 12speed gravel setup, with a SRAM 10-36 cassette and a Shimano 31-48 compact crank, 165mm length. My road bike is a Shimano 11-speed 34/50 crank, 172.5mm, but I’ve used this mixed setup on the KICKR Bike for several months, testing the 165mm as well as the 10t cog that Shimano doesn’t offer. I like the mix, and when I upgrade my DOMANE SLR groupset, I’m leaning toward something like that range. Sorta hoping Shimano comes around to a 10t cog one day soon, or maybe I’ll just try the SRAM cassette anyway, though the chain differences are not inconsequential.)
The 20 minute FTP interval began and I got dialed in on the right gear for cadence and power, and then the clock stopped…
Well, not actually,… But man, it got SO SLOW. I stayed focused on cadence and power, and I had a number in mind that I wanted to hold, mostly just up into the 200’s, so every time I saw fluctuations creeping in below 200, I refocused and kept the pressure on the pedals and got it up above again. I FINALLY saw 5 minutes had passed… I was feeling “okay?” But I thought to myself, “Only FIVE DONE??”
The next 5 went even slower. I did start to recognize that this was taking a toll, but tried to put it out of my mind. I was totally okay FOR NOW, but I knew the tank was nowhere near full anymore. I got halfway through the 20 and tried to have a small party about that milestone!
Party was a bust… Nobody showed up. EXCEPT the NAG family…
“You’re gonna be dying before the next 5 passes.”
“You’re already dipping into 190’s, even 180’s now and then!”
“Notice how HARD it is to top 210 now??”
I raised my effort higher and put a cleat down on the NAGS HEADS, and sent them off to the Outer Banks for awhile.
15 minutes passed… as slow as water through a dead pond…
I was absolutely NOT going to lose what I’d fought for! I played counting games with cadence, with breathing, always keeping the counts short: just this little bit, then repeat it… keep pressing the pedals, never watch the clock, (lost that battle now and then),
And FINALLY the 20-HOUR interval came to an end, some fades had been creeping in but I swatted them back again and again and finished where I wanted to be, still pushing it up out of the 190’s into the 200’s.
Another recovery, desperately needed, even a little walk off the bike… but the 1-minute CRUSHER was looming ahead, closing fast, and then…
BOOM! You’re in it! PUSH THOSE WATTS!
HEY, I FEEL GOOD! Look at that! Into the 400’s even this late in the test! YEAH!
But it was short-lived… And I HATE THAT MID-INTERVAL DISTRACTION!
Those sound effects coming in the middle of the 60 seconds, AND that drop on the graph… WHAT IS THAT?
Pure distraction! I ALMOST got fooled by it and thought the minute was done, but I caught myself and remembered that the graph had that strange drop for the 2nd 30-seconds, so I kept pushing… (but I will say the data clearly shows on all 3 times I’ve done Full Frontal that this IS the normal behavior of the body when it has been thrashed this harshly in a short period of time. By about 30 seconds, the power just fades…
But I held out through the 60-second mark, still getting out decent but reduced Watts, and HALLELUJAH! It is finished! The suffering is over, and it is not in vain!
(BTW, I cannot write those words without remembering the REAL SUFFERING of One I love, and Who loves me [inexplicably!] and Whose Suffering was absolutely NOT IN VAIN! Nor will He ever need to repeat it! It was ENOUGH!)
So I’m plenty happy with my effort and feel the results are pretty much spot-on with a hardest effort. I’d love to see bigger numbers, but as I’m nearing 67, age is taking an inevitable toll on my strength, so I’m content to keep fighting to slow the losses.
I’m greatly blessed and always thankful for it.
Results:
FTP 203W (old Garmin estimate 193W)
MAP 248W (old, extrapolated from Garmin 233W)
AC 344W (old, extrapolated from Garmin 289)
NM 707W (old, extrapolated from Garmin 625W)
but indeed…HELL YEAH!!
