SUF Support Tips: All about Level Mode

@JSampson Yes - that is correct. I was using the chart presented by Therese (beginning of this thread) with levels for the Wahoo KICKR as an example. However, I do not have a Wahoo KICKR - my trainer is a CycleOps H2.So I would need to find those curves and target power to determine the ‘right’ level.
You stated the curve formula for the Fluid 2 - Is x mph and y Watts for that formula?
My understanding is that the H2 is based on the Fluid 2 but I don’t yet see how the levels would apply to that formula. It seems there would be one or more term changes.

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@ChrisLeyen thanks - didn’t realize that first column was rear cogs. Makes sense to me now.

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Yes - apologies - “y” is Power, and “x” is speed in MPH. CycleOps/Saris publishes a chart with the Fluid 2 curve but I found the formula above from a blog by the bike geek. I guess you could try contacting Saris to get the power curve details for the H2 at each level but since you can measure power via the trainer you could also discover the power curve via testing at different speeds and levels and then matching that to your gear speed calculations. I couldn’t do that with the Fluid 2 and didn’t have a separate power meter.

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I am sure you could improve your FF results by riding it in ERG mode, but the results would only reflect your mentally pre determined ceiling, not your max or true bests

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Can we have this handy graph for kph as well?
I’m asking in behalf of all fellow Sufferlandrians from outside the US :wink:

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I’m sorry, I only have the graph available in this format. I too live in a metric world and do calculations in my head when necessary.

It isn’t necessary to do calculations to fight LTE out what curve you need though. A few trials to ensure you can reach all the power targets for the test is all that is necessary. Sir Martin’s advice above to pre-ride FF is a great idea.

I raced a few years ago, there were mile markers around the course but I got it into my head they were km markers.I was with a small group with 5km to go, did an attack, if I had got a gap all would be well, but of course the real distance was 5 miles, and I did not make it.
The grand tours that are on TV have countdowns in Km and I always translate them in my head into English, yet when North American races are televised I keep translating the miles into KM. Why? I just do not know

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A follow up on this, as I am also still a bit puzzled on how to make level mode work for me, esp. during the FF test. Already during other workouts I was doing on level mode, as recommended, I got the feeling the resistance DOES change when starting a new block (e.g. going from recovery to target 350W, from RPE0 to 8 for example).

In that case I do not understand level mode. I see it changes with (virtual) ‘velocity’, though I would still expect power output remains constant when you enter the block? Or does RPE influence velocity, which in turn influences resistance (and therefore power, given cadence remains constant)???

Also I have difficulties doing the short sprints in the FF. If I will only start pushing at the start of the 7s interval, I will not get close to any power much higher than MAP or AC. So I need to increase resistance from ~15-10s before the start of the interval already (by shifting gears, to the big ring), while maintaining/building cadence as well. This makes it two efforts a bit longer than 7s. How do others do this?

I was also thinking of trying the suggestion from @Stonechat, using erg next time, though I also read from @anon8787683 I shouldn’t do it.
I would set a good target for the 7s and the 1 min, that can either make or not, and for the longer intervals I would adjust intensity along the way, but without shifting. Wouldn’t this work?

@piekpower, can you please send us an email? theminions@thesufferfest.com. When in Level mode, the resistance should only increase when you’re shifting gears. I suspect that if you’re feeling the resistance change when going from recovery to 350W that you are in ERG mode and not Level mode. Please be sure to send us a screenshot of your device connections screen, and the email address that you use to log into the app!

I will validate / experiment with it once more… pretty sure I am not on erg mode as the power graph is very wobbly though.

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Don’t hesitate to send us a ticket. It definitely sounds like something is interfering with your trainer control!

tried to reproduce today, but no issue. Most likely I could confused by shifting etc at the same time, just before starting an interval… as it should be

I just did my first 4DP test and really struggled to find a comfortable gear. All my previous 20 minute efforts have been done on indoor bikes with resistance knobs: I’d find and hold my ideal cadence and then dial in the resistance. During the test I could fine tune my power output by making small adjustments to the resistance or to my cadence. This approach doesn’t really work in level mode, because I’m experiencing 50–60W jumps between gears while holding the same cadence (using Level 0 and 1).

  • This sounds like a painfully obvious question (that’s been at least partially addressed already), but how do most people approach the 20 minute effort? Given how big the gaps in power output between gears are, adjusting resistance (shifting) doesn’t seem like a useful way to modulate my effort. Do you just need to predetermine a level and gearing combination that seems to get you in the ballpark before the test, and then limit yourself to adjustments in cadence during the test?

  • When using level mode in standard workouts, do you typically disregard cadence targets? With 50-60W gaps between gears, hitting both cadence and power targets on the fly seems like a big ask…

  • I’m also struggling to wrap my head around the interaction between gearing ratios and the level mode resistance curves and what criteria would I use to choose a level when there are several gear/level combinations where I can hit my targets while maintaining a relatively straight chain line? Say my target is 250W and I’m most comfortable at 90rpm. Looking at the power curve chart I see that I could achieve this power target at a lower speed (ie. using a lower gear ratio since I’m trying to keep cadence @ 90) and a higher level, or a higher speed/gear ratio and a lower level. Reducing the effect that small variations in cadence have on power output seems desirable during a test (although maybe the opposite is true during training?). Changes in cadence will have a smaller effect on speed at a lower gear ratio than at a higher gear ratio, but a higher level will increase the difference in resistance between speeds (and vice versa). Do these effects basically cancel each other out?

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What ratio cassette do you have? I would expect big jumps with a wide ratio cassette, I have a 8spd close ratio 12-25 and the gaps are only about 20w.

11-28 (the one that came with my kickr). Looking at @ChrisLeyen’s chart and the graph I think the power jumps I’m experiencing are to be expected (e.g. @93rpm 52x17=22.33mph ~325W @ Level 0, 52x19=19.98mph ~ 250W @ Level 0).

You’ll get smaller jumps between gears if you use the small ring rather than your 52t big ring even if you have to increase the level to get the same power for a lower flywheel speed.

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Thanks! I had read in a different thread that increasing the level would increase the gap between gears. This seems correct, but doesn’t take into account the fact that you’ll be using smaller gears to compensate for the increase in resistance so, in practice (at least at the power outputs I am targeting), the opposite is true.

Targeting 250W at 90rpm (based on the Level resistance curve graph):

  • In the small ring: 34x19 and Level 7. Increasing my cadence by 5rpm would result in ~20W increase. Shifting up to 34x17 would result in ~35W bump.
  • In the big ring: 50x19 and Level 1. Increasing my cadence by 5rpm would result in ~30W increase. Shifting up to 50x17 would result in ~75W bump.

Basically, play around with all the different level modes. Do different workouts in different levels while switching gears. While doing this you’ll figure out approximately the power you can hold for 20 minutes and also an idea of what cadence works best for you. Then you can find the level that allows you to hold the power and cadence you want.

If you don’t try it out, you’ll inevitably find that the power and cadence you want to hold will put you right in the middle between two gears. By trying out the different levels, you’re more likely to find the level and gearing that will work best for you in your next 4DP test so you’re not frustrated in between gears.

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Ah - this is what I needed to get out of the math I did above (but did not)! Yes!, better choice to use small ring for better resolution (smaller power diff) in cassette changes. Then, select level to align chain. Thanks this is the key to me.
As one who regularly rides the trainer in the big ring, it now makes sense what I was experiencing which aligns with your story. A downshift meant I needed to increase cadence to an uncomfortable degree to be on the power I wanted and similarly in reverse which meant a struggle to find a good rhythm.
As others on this thread have pointed out, testing in an open session in level mode is a good idea too. But again, if you are riding big ring, you need to have it pretty perfect whereas with the little ring, you may be able to move more gracefully between gears as you go. Thanks for the post @sf2448

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