The “traditional” way to train VO2max typically consists in intervals at 105-120% of your FTP, so I guess that we still get benefits if we train at 110-115% of FTP during AVDP. Probably not optimal stimulus, but it’s still something I guess.
It’s a good question and I am curious as well.
I suspect the traditional method is making a general assumption of your FTP as a percentage of MAP and so could be a bit off target for individuals with a higher than average MAP relative to their FTP.
So my thinking was to push my true MAP to the limit as the workout intends, even if that means failure to complete all 5 efforts. As a compromise I maybe should have lowered my MAP target slightly for the 4th and 5th intervals to stand a better chance of finishing. But I don’t think I would lower the intensity from the start knowing that I could hit at least 2 or 3 intervals at 100% before blowing up.
AVDP last night with a MAP of 250w from a FF on 18-Feb vs 240 from back in November was A Very Different Proposition. Last time I hit all the targets and came out feeling strong, this time however I managed the first interval, struggled towards the end of the second and by the end of the 3rd my legs were totally powered out.
I was riding on a dumb trainer so trying to match power and cadence targets by changing gear. Looking back I think I got trapped into trying to match the lower cadence targets at the expense of the power targets in the second half of the workout, which led to riding in too high a gear, muscular fatigue and less demand on my Cardiovascular system which is why I couldn’t get above LTHR to AVDP. Perhaps if I had wound the cadence up to 90-100 rpm I might have been able to get my HR up and generate more power? Or is the point of the workout to build muscular power as well?
My opinion after having done it a second time following a month long polarized on road block and seeing power increases across the board is that if you are not fresh forget it!! Today at the end of a 2 week ramp just about got through (30 sec from end of 5 th internal). In January I was definitely not as “fit” but finished it using same numbers. These super hard sessions can’t just be lumped anywhere in a plan in my opinion - they are as hard as a race which you would taper for!!! I’m actually happier with today’s effort despite a technically “worse” performance
I find it interesting that AVDP seems to cause so much grief for some. I did it for the first time today and did find it challenging, but I had no trouble finishing and hitting the targets. With a nod to the recent whimsical thread on alternative workout names, I might recast this as “At the Brink of Darkness” or maybe “The End of Twilight”.
I did this nine days after my last FF, so I doubt that inaccurate 4DP numbers would account for the somewhat less than maximal suffering. However, the first workout that I tried after a decent recovery from the FF - Hell Hath No Fury - did put me in a very dark place. I had to stop and catch my breath twice during the second twenty-minute interval and once during the three-minute MAP effort at the end.
I wonder if what we are seeing is simply that different rider types do better at different workouts. The first two times that I did FF I came out as a Pursuiter; the most recent one shifted this to Sprinter. Both of these have sustained efforts at threshold as a weakness, which is what HHNF dishes up in abundance. No wonder that I suffered there! On the other hand, a Pursuiter’s strength (and I suspect also respectable for Sprinters) is MAP, so it’s perhaps not so surprising that AVDP is (almost) a happy place for me.
Not for me! MAP is my strongest 4DP metric (Pursuiter) but AVDP still kills me. I think for me it’s the recovery between intervals I struggle with. Obviously I can dig deep for a single MAP interval in FF, but I find repeated efforts difficult with short recoveries.
HHNF is a (insert expletive of choice here)! Old numbers, new numbers it always sorts me out!!!
First time today (was having great respect ), was going really well with Pursuiter profile. So was almost ‚enjoyable‘ suffering. One of my fav workouts for sure. (Surprisingly
)
It’s such a great work out.
A couple of weeks ago on brand new numbers (HM, over-estimated too I think) my post-workout notes said “Hard but doable. Cancellara on Cobbles effort as hard as ever.”. I always forget about that effort until I hear the music and then it dawns on me what’s about to happen. Every time.
It’s a fantastic workout for sure.
On the MAP focus thing in various threads/posts - In theory this workout will have the same impact irrespective of what the 4DP assessment looks like. Which is what the 4DP is all about I guess.
So if I’m majoring on MAP vs the other metrics when I do my assessment, then it means when I do this workout then those yellow bars will be at my limit
If my weakest area in the assessment is MAP, then the workout will still be at my limit.
So it doesn’t really matter what the assessment works out as, as the workout will reflect our own MAP capability.
Some comments in here about recovery - that’s what gets me personally on all VO2 workouts.
Re the very original post title.
Personally, I fail them all (if fail is defined by not managing to hold power at the defined level, using ERG, and no extra breaks). AVDP, Nine Hammers being two.
I often take longer rests between each interval. Just a choice I make that works for some, but may not get the same training outcome. But that’s the way it is
Did it for the first time this evening and really enjoyed it. I was a bit worried taking on another of the “big boys” after failing to finish Defender on Saturday but didn’t struggle too badly with AVDP at all. That said, being new to indoor training I don’t yet have the technique to nail the rapid cadence changes and I’ll never be spinning 110rpm out of the saddle.
I think as a workout it quite closely replicates the terrain where I live in the far South West of England, so perhaps that’s why things never got too dark for me.