Full frontal

Training
1

Hey there!

I’m relatively new (started training with SYSTM last August).

I initially did a half monty which gave me good results. My benchmark: I could always finish the workouts with a high IF score (close to 1), but I would really, really suffer to finish. That’s what I mean by “it gave me good results”. It felt well tuned.

I later did a a full frontal which gave me similar results, all good (I wasn’t expecting progress). I was pretty proud of my pacing throughout the efforts - the numbers from my previous half monty were pretty accurate, which helped a lot. Anyway, I’m mentioning this because clearly that full frontal worked well and gave me a good assessment

Then I started training more seriously (including running and rowing as well, not just cycling). After a few months, the “hard” workouts in SYSTM started feeling way too easy, so I figured it was time for another full frontal, which I did on a good day (well rested, well fed).

I gave everything for the NM efforts and the MAP effort. For the MAP, I felt like started a little too strong but I didn’t collapse, I just adjusted enough to avoid collapsing. The power chart shows a consistent downslope down from 350W to 330W over 5 minutes. I really gave it everything, it was excruciatingly hard, I really followed the “give all you have” instructions to the letter. After that I barely managed to get off the bike and couldn’t even walk, my legs were literally shaking. I was entirely depleted! So I thought, mission accomplished this is exactly what was asked.

The thing is, for the ensuing 20 minutes effort, I had to tone it down. I knew I had progressed (hard workouts now felt easy after all!), but I really wasn’t feeling confident after the 5 minutes effort so I only started at 266W (my previous FTP) hoping to crank it up after 5-10 minutes. But I couldn’t, and with great pain I finished the last 10mins at ~235W, with a resulting FTP of 251W with absolutely nothing left in the tank - the final AC effort was a nail in the coffin (as usual). I also became a “pursuiter” (used to be “attacker”)

Overall I felt my pacing was pretty good. I did not collapse, I did adjustments that didn’t feel too drastic, and I gave it everything I had.

But it left me with an even lower FTP. Ego aside, hard workouts already felt too easy at 266W. No way I want to use a lower value, so I edited it back to 266 in SYSTM. And it still feels too easy (I did the tour’s fight club yesterday), so I’ll have to crank it up again.

What do you think? I’m tempted to stick to half monty to avoid the same thing happening. I feel like the 5 minutes effort completely shot me and made the assessment inaccurate, at least when considering how hard workouts should feel after the assessment.

(I’m 85kgs, in case W/kg matters)

Thanks!

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@Thorfin I wish I had thoughtful advice to encourage you back to full frontal, but I hate the full frontal test and avoid it. It takes a proper build, taper, and then mental focus on the day, but that is hard to create with all the other stuff in our lives. Plus it’s just not as fun as the other Sufferfest workouts. I do the ramp test occasionally to check ftp and map, but have relied on zwift data for adjustments between tests.

I probably should do a new full frontal, but thinking about it makes dread it.

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What happened to your other 4DP numbers? Perhaps they will show that you did, indeed, burn out on the 5 minute test.

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I did +10% on NM, interestingly MAP stayed the same (gained 1 watt), and I lost 10% on AC.

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Great post @Thorfin

Your approach sounds great (to me) as a majority of my 4DP efforts I’ve done the same as you on the 5 min test. This is often the ‘weak’ part of this testing protocol as it’s hard to really go ‘that hard’ and can leave people with lower MAP values and higher FTP values - it takes practice to do what you’ve done normally :ok_hand::ok_hand::ok_hand::clap::flexed_biceps::flexed_biceps:

re the 20 minute result. First thing - if it’s still low then bumping it up is no issue at all. No matter what protocol is used there are always pro’s and con’s and those are entirely Individual and sometimes on a given day

depending on how brutal you were in the previous test, may have affected your results differently as well of course. But there’s prob no need to over analyse that. I’d say you hit this test hard. You ‘possibly’ overdid the first bit of the 20min test as you would have expected the 20 min to have improved and that’s just an ‘on the day’ thing maybe. You had no way of knowing other than maybe by feel after 2-3 mins .. but that would be hard to tell.

I say - stick to 4DP’s - as they’re also a great training session anyway.

Put your ftp back up, and if you want even higher.

And then do the FTP 4x10 session at some point (or hell hath no fury. Maybe UAE tour 1.

the thing about the ramp test is it’s got it own flaws. Every test has. Do 4DP and modify as you see fit.

(I also felt I fluffed the 20 minute result on the odd occasion and I just reset that and kept the NM/MAP/AC). After I’d done a few I could pretty much set everything from MAP for the outposts of training using the app.

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May I suggest you refer to this thread:

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If the workouts are too easy you can just manually change your 4DP numbers.

IMO the numbers are only useful for:

  1. Dialing in the intensity of workouts (you can do this by feel)
  2. Tracking progress
  3. Pride
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Ok, I just did a half monty for science, and FTP is now 304W, which is over 20% higher than what my very recent Full Frontal measured (251W).

Interestingly, MAP also jumped to 377W - that I didn’t expect since I really gave it all in full frontal.

Maybe I had a bad day on full frontal (I felt so great on that day so it doesn’t seem plausible, but who knows).

Or maybe I’m about to discover the true meaning of suffering with FTP/MAP inflated by half monty :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Anyway, such variance between tests is surprising to me! Just updating this thread for future reference/in case others are interested

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IMG_7493

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I think it’s known if you have a natural aptitude for VO2 max work then a ramp test has a tendency to overestimate FTP and MAP. In theory the constrained effort part of HM helps Wahoo mitigate that somewhat, but the truth is probably somewhere between the two sets of results. Plus, these things are only ever an “on the day” snapshot anyway.

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It’s like the minions automatically cranking every workout up to 120% before you realize it.

I also got a pretty decent bump (FTP :up_arrow:5%, MAP :up_arrow:12%) when I did Half Monty for the first time in January, and was pleasantly surprised.

Everything went from “oh that’s rough” to “good lord I’m not sure I can finish this (but somehow managed to)” which means it was spot on.

Hopefully you have the same painful luck.

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Like others, I hate the FF. On the other hand, I’m pretty sure the HM makes me look better than I really am. On the other other hand, I’ve grown less enamored of the numbers (they’re important, but they’re not everything) and lately focus on just enjoying being fit, getting more fit, losing it and then getting it back. At 63yo, I’m losing power & VO2 pretty much every two years. And I’m trying hard to be OK with that.

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How many hands do you have?!

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