I think he’s trying to say that he might not have actually maxed out his 5 min test, therefore slightly under-performing MAP and over-performing FTP, which is quite feasible with a MAP apparently only 115% over FTP. The “normal” expected range would be 120-130%. Of course MAP could also be a genuine weakness if he couldn’t walk or breathe after the 5 min test!
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That is exactly what I’m saying. I’m not saying my 20 minute was low. It checked out close to what I would expect based on other testing protocols. I’ve done a 20 minute effort in a race of 267W, so the 253W was a reasonable result. I’m saying that I don’t think that my 5-minute was high enough. I suspect that I did not empty everything out in that 5-minute test.
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You could always sub Half Monty in place of a pre-tour workout to validate your MAP. It would also adjust your numbers automatically. Or just bump your MAP up by 5%
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Perhaps that’s a good idea. I have 14 Vice Grips scheduled for Saturday. It would keep the training load similar if I sub that out for a Half Monty.
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Alternatively you could always do the first part of FF again and stop right after the MAP effort. That would give you the most accurate MAP result without the pain of completing another full test! Then if your MAP is much higher this time, manually alter your profile to suit. I know I’ve done the MAP interval properly when I’m absolutely destroyed at the end, gasping for air with legs on fire!
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Got it, sorry i misunderstood. But yeah, you can always do an impromptu 5 min test to see if you didn’t quite max out, and that should be just as valid as FF since during FF you’re relatively fresh at that point anyway. Only thing to bear in mind would be, if you get a 5 min that’s a lot higher, you may end up wanting to nudge down the FTP setting, absent other corroboration of that number.
I actually did an impromptu 5 and 20 yesterday. I didn’t schedule FF but i had a free hard day and felt good, so i was like, well, i don’t know the rests well enough to replicate full frontal on my own, but i can freehand the 5 and 20.
Ended up with 350 for the 5 (down about 36 from last year’s high water mark but about 20 above this time last year) and 277 (down about 23 from highwater but 17 above where i was this time last year)
Today there is pain but it’s a satisfying pain
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It’s probably been 8 weeks since my last test, so a little touch up is likely in order either way. I was going to wait until the FF in the Post ToS program, but now is as good a time as any to dial things in a little more. We wouldn’t want the ToS to be easier than it should be, right?
But like I said, I don’t think subbing the HM for 14 Vice Grips on Saturday will alter the overall training load, especially with the final taper week of the ToS prep plan next week.
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I’m just trying out Sufferfest and decided to jump straight in with a FF on day 2 without the proper preparation because:
- I was curious about what kind of rider I was
- I wanted to make sure my workouts were at the right level
- I wanted to know what I should target
- I know if I left it too long it would become too much of a “big deal” and I would be apprehensive about doing it
I’m really pleased I decided to do it, I may not have got the highest scores possible but I think it was a fair representation of where I’m at. I was happy with my pacing based on my estimated FTP, I had to switch gear and up my cadence to maintain my power in the FTP section and didn’t feel I’d left anything in the tank. I felt completely wiped by the end of the test.
My interesting revelation is that I’m an attacker, and that attackers tend to overperform on ramp tests. This got me thinking back to last winter when I was using trainerroad and I did a ramp test and got a really good result for my FTP and then found all the workouts really hard and started failing them. It’s now all clicked into place and I’m even more glad I did it.
I’ve signed up for the 4 week FTP block and I’m really looking forward to getting stuck in.
Why am I writing all of this? Partly because I’m excited and wanted to share, and partly to encourage any other newcomers to take the bull by the horns and do an FF, don’t be put off or daunted. It’s definitely hard work but completely worth it!
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Keep me posted on how the FTP block goes. I am going to start that in 2 weeks time.
I agree my ability to sustain efforts is poor and really need to focus on that as I think that is dragging my ability down. I am also an attacker! But suspect I am more of a sprinter .
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Would it help you at all if I told you I’m just getting back on the bike after injury and a 20 year hiatus and I would quite possibly sell one of my kids for that FF profile right now?
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Finished the impromptu Half Monty.
MAP: 301 → 327 (5.33 w/kg)
FTP: 253 → 263 (4.29 w/kg)
LTHR: 166 → 171
I’ll take both power numbers at this point. I expect that I’ve increased my fitness a bit in the last 8 weeks, but I also suspect that was conservative in my pacing during the initial Full Monty.
Now to do some targeting of that MAP number.
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I did the 4DP today for the second time. In the end it wasn´t as terribly as I remembered it to be. Nonetheles it was brutal and I cursed a lot. Thank god, my wife and kids weren´t at home. 
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Hi Savman, sorry for not replying sooner, have you started it yet?
I’m really enjoying it so far, the FTP Progression workouts are a good motivator, I’ve found each one about as hard as the one before but with an extra minute in each block so I must be getting fitter!
The Rookie was tough for me, I was swearing at my trainer when it didn’t drop the resistance quickly enough at the end of a block! So far I’ve finished everything as prescribed at 100% and feeling the right amount of exhausted I think!
I was dreading doing “Attacker” but it was actually one of the “easier” ones for me, maybe it just plays to my strength as my 4DP says I’m an attacker.
Hope you’re enjoying it, or if you haven’t started yet then go for it!
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I haven’t started the plan. I did a FF test and flunked the sustained effort. So much so that it started downgrading my MAP. See a link below.
I have moved away from the plans for the time being. I am following periodized training for the next month as this should focus on my lack of aerobic engine. The majority of my training will be zone 2 rides with MAP efforts twice a week.
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I was going to do standard FF today but could not as the indoor trainer is broken. So I tried to do an “outside 4DP” and it somewhat worked but not entirely because the hills available didn’t quite line up with the rest intervals. I successfully completed:
- max effort 5 seconds, two, of them, best around 1100
- max effort 2.5 minutes (the hill I planned for the fiver was too short, so I just maxed it for however long it took to get to the top), of 429 watts
- exactly five mins later, max effort 5 min test of 383
- about 20 minutes later, did 45 minutes back home at 295 but structured as over unders based on road conditions.
Overall I feel good about it and I think I can use the zones to train by at least for MAP and FTP with some guesstimation.
Regardless this is by far the best 5 min power I’ve had in February basically ever. And I think it roughly should correspond to MAP, even though I couldn’t immediately follow it with the 20 min**, because the mid-short max effort right in front of it should have depleted anaerobic stores first.
**I think I finally figured out why a 5 min number that is too high relative to the 20 gets adjusted down. I think it’s because although it is a valid 5 min max effort, it may not really be your MAP (emphasis on “aerobic”). A low 20 min suggests that you might have been relying too much on anaerobic contribution to really call the fiver your “MAP.”
Final lesson, don’t neglect those FTP videos. I’ve done some long rides but nothing above threshold yet this year.
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Hi no my ftp on today’s ff is 212, and map is 267. It’s the way I am and you are. People are different, that’s why 4dp exists
I’d done a Half-Monty to touch up my FTP and MAP about 8 days prior to the start of the ToS and I did see bumps in my FTP and MAP, though I felt it overestimated my MAP. It estimated my MAP at 326w, which was 26w above my previous Full Monty. I saw a bump of 10w to 263w for my FTP estimate.
A bump of 26w to my MAP made workouts and the ToS… Fun.
I completed another Full-Monty in the post-ToS program on Saturday and my FTP more or less lined up with the Half-Monty test (261w on Saturday, 2w lower than the HM, well within the margin of error), but my MAP came back at 311w. This was 15w below the previous HM test, but 10w above my previous Full-Monty. This feels more in line with reality.
AC and NM were both within the margin of error of my previous Full-Monty. I can’t say I’ve done much focus on that end, so that doesn’t surprise me.
A quick rant to vent my frustration with the world.
Throughout 2020 I did FF 7 times, monthly, with pleasing results every time (a few months of the usual beginner’s gains, then some solid training results). I was happy. I even enjoyed it!
I retested 1st Jan with results up across the board and hitting a particular FTP goal I had. Very very pleased.
I started a 12 week plan the next day. I even threw in the ToS at nuclear (6 weeks after my test, so it was still a relevant test but perhaps sliightly under par). I got a couple of badass records in my training and the start of outrdoor riding looked very proimising, smashing PRs everywhere.
I knew I needed a retest. Pronto.
During my prep week I picked up an injury. Nothing major, but it needed a week off. I gingerly got back on the bike, eventually took the test, totally ****ed up my 5sec sprints (like -25%), smashed my 5minute and then utterly blew up on the 20min. I goit my nutrition wrong, was so not with it that I even forgot to even turn the fan beyond 1, and stopped for a rest at 10mins in. I finished it but it wasn’t right. Mentally I wasn’t there.
I smashed by 1min after that, but clearly it’s not a real reflection.
I was hugely frustrated. I manully adjusted my profile to keep my 5sec / FTP as it was, and took the new 5min / 1min numbers. I trained for a bit on that and it felt fine. 9H killed me, but, you know.
Then I got ill, 3 weeks off the bike! Noooo! TrainingPeaks (for what it’;s worth) now puts my fitness exactly where it was on 1st January. (Though pleasingly strava PRs still came this week so I know I’m not back to then).
I’ve been scared of revisiting FF. The morale hit I took last time was awful, despite the gains in some aspects. And this is a test I used to enjoy (I love the 20min video).
I finally plucked up the courage this morning, after 2 days of geting back in and then a rest day. I was feeling good. I even cleaned my chain first! I was ready. This was it.
1st 5seconds…my foot came loose and I lost a chain! Noooooo!!! This was after the first couple of seconds feeling reeeally good. I know I got the level and gear just right.
2nd 5 seconds…felt good. Then the app and my machine crashed. Noooooo!!! Everything stopped. No more.
The app recovered the session. Those first 2 seconds were indeed excellent.
*&% *&% *&$%!!!
I could restart, but sprinting isn’t my thing and I know I’m a bit fatigued from those sprints now, despite them only being short and sharp. Also, it’s glorious outside. I’m not going back in the garage to start all over again.
I should just HTFU and get on with it, but I’m in the middle of a working day too.
I’ll carve out some time later and go and soak up some vitamin D and fresh air. I’ll get back to FF again soon, but bloody hell I’m annoyed.
Rant over. Please ignore! 
L
@leebo Not your day - forget it and just go for it the next time and make sure that fan is working!
My old drill sergeant used to say “Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you”. Pick yourself up, shake off the nails and broken glass, and get back up there.
(found out later he totally stole the line from a movie, but still… 
)
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