Not all of us are racing - some are here for the endorphins that workouts like 9H give us…
4dp ensures that I get maximum suffering (and therefore, endorphins) from each workout, no matter what the focus of the season - those that play to my strengths are turned up and those that are more challenging aren’t over the top.
In my (limited, naturally) experience all fitness tests have a learning curve for pacing etc to get the best results.
Generally people will stick with training programs which sir then and that they can identify with. To me, abandoning a programme because the progress tests are “too difficult” is a bit odd, but we all have to find things that work for ourselves. For me FF is best approached as a test of my mental fortitude rather than a simply physical one - it has taken me half a dozen attempts to come to that conclusion.
I just find it odd that someone would enjoy Sufferfest style training (clue’s in the name) but refuse to even attempt FF. In the overall scheme of things FF is not even in the top 10 hardest workouts in the SUF library. It just requires good pacing and the will to give it your best effort.
I think it is because it is called a test, and therefore people worry about the judgement of numbers.
This seems to be true even though nobody knows what your numbers are, unless you publicize them or a minion sees them when they are helping you. I presume the coaches only see data divorced from real-life identifiers.
I could only wish I got an endorphin high from Nine Hammers. I have a little routine I do after I finish Nine Hammers (or–more frequently–blow up and/or come within an inch of blacking out on that last hammer): I stumble off into a corner of my pain cave, plunk or lie down, and stare at some random spot on the wall or floor in an insensate daze for 15-20 minutes (I’m never quite sure how long). If not for the fact that my CTL fitness is usually up at least in the 70-80 range, I imagine I would probably finish that little stupor session of mine with a good vomit. Endorphins is what I get after a spirited two-hour group ride with my buddies.
There is stuff you do that improves your health, general fitness, and overall feeling of well-being–and that’s great! And then, there are certain things that a normal person would only do if they needed that last 10% of performance necessary to not get dropped from the pack in a group start race. A fair amount of what SUF offers falls into that second category. And SUF is extremely effective for that specific purpose because it makes no compromises.
I hold that this is exactly as it should be. It seems that a fair number of the posters in the forums who find some of the activities and even the ethos of SUF not to their liking do so because they have mistaken SUF for a general-purpose cardio fitness program such as Peloton. Then, they recommend that SUF change to become more like Peloton. This would be like complaining to a builder of Formula 1 race cars that their cars’ climate control system stinks and there’s no space for groceries. No no. Let SUF be SUF. There are plenty of perfectly good general-purpose cardio fitness programs out there, but there is only one SUF.
@Erik_Tidestrom how long have you been racing or using SUF for. Having read your past two posts you have summed up SUF and my feelings towards it!
It’s a racing app! One to make you stronger and faster! And less so a cycling cardio fitness app.
When you think about it like that you see it more as a necessary evil(and I mean this in a good way) and makes it more palentable.Which explains the push on mental toughness etc.
I race because I enjoy the thrill of pushing my body to the limit.
I’ve been following this thread for a while and feel the need to comment - hope no-one takes it as criticism!
I don’t like 4DP/FF test either BUT it’s a useful tool. It’s not compulsory and other workrounds have been suggested here (like doing it more often as just a normal session etc)
I’ve done 4 max VO2 tests (bike ramp test, mask to capture exhaled air, lactate bloodtest etc) and to be honest they were pretty horrible too but I learnt a lot!
I don’t race but have completed several grand fondo like rides - some where I trained backed up by testing, and one not backed up at all (coach I paid for ignored info I gave him and I basically detrained all winter )
I know which I would happily do again.
So if you don’t want to test then don’t! Maybe you can dial in values from real life reading etc. Or use HM
To be honest as a newcomer I would find some of the comments here and elswhere offputting and even scary!
So - happy voluntary testing - and great suffering to you all! /Liz
That is the reality of testing your limits. It is always going to hurt. It would be great if there was a painless way to test accurately and train! But there isn’t really a shortcut. Ramp tests are always a compromise - in the case of SUF you don’t get a full 4DP set with HM and FTP/MAP can be potentially skewed by your rider type. But the SUF ramp test is about as good as it gets with the added constrained effort. FF hurts more and is technically harder to complete properly, but is more accurate and learning to pace better is a great skill in its own right.
I agree. It puts pressure on you to perform and beat your previous test numbers. Also there is an obsession with FTP as a single parameter. If I wanted to massage my “FTP ego” I would just do a simple 5 min “FTP” test and apply the 85% approximation. That would instantly push my FTP up by around 25W, but I certainly wouldn’t survive subsequent SUF workouts at that level.
I would also rather do FF than a traditional 20 min FTP test as it gives you 3 more important performance parameters for not that much extra effort. Although the MAP interval really, really hurts, there is enough recovery allowed for the 20 min effort and it strangely makes the start of the 20 min effort feel relatively easy. The 1 min AC effort is not that bad either as you know it’s nearly all over and you are just emptying the tank.
I’ve been on SUF since 2017. I raced a lot as a young man in the 1980s, and then recently came back to it.
I actually don’t really use SUF the whole year as my main training method. I like to maintain high CTL fitness so that I can recover more quickly during the race season from hard training and races. And high CTL means high volume. There’s just no way around that. So in the long, dark, cold days of winter, I’m typically grinding out hour after hour on Zwift while listening to NPR classical radio, with maybe one FTP session per week (something like Team Scream or a Zwift race). The winter LSD puts a dent in my weekly schedule, and it gets boring, but I reap the rewards about this time of year.
The result is that, after smashing out three weeks of back-to-back HIIT sessions plus plenty of volume on the weekends, my legs feel hardly the slightest trace of fatigue right now, but my training plan calls for a rest week this coming week. Yesterday, I actually substituted 60 minutes of outdoor low-cadence threshold hill repeats up a 12% gradient for the moderate “Getting Away with it”-style ride my SUF plan called for, just because I don’t want to start a rest week already rested. I’m having trouble getting my legs sore, no matter what I do! It’s a nice “problem” to have.
I HATE the 4DP too… But for a different reason. Fear of the unknown.Thus far, despite me being bummed and a little humbled by the full frontal FTP number, the post test workouts have been spot on with workouts feeling just right and a few at my max capacity, (especially if the ERG mode gets stuck in a death spiral). However when I complete the 12 week all rounder plan that I’m half way through, I’ve got a feeling when I retest full frontal (and I’ll do the prep plan ahead of time again too), the darn results may be significantly higher and therefore subsequent workouts harder. Minions!
I agree with this that the 20 minute test is actually easier within 4DP than on a standalone basis. and definitely agree that 4DP is most bang for buck in terms of tests, with “bang” meaning valuable data and “buck” meaning relative units of suffering. Just the 5 min to 20 min comparison alone is great stuff.
In terms of the test anxiety, i think there are two critical things:
First is cultivate a “growth” mindset (vs a static one), which means that mentally, you would see your performance as something that you can always improve by working at it. The upshot is that then test results are a referendum on how you’ve trained recently rather than a referendum on your potential. In other words, a result that you’re disappointed with becomes useful data about how to get where you want to go rather than a much more dispiriting message that you, fundamentall, are incapable of improving. Everyone has a mix of mindsets across facets of their lives and the more you can skew those mindsets towards growth, the better.
Second is to bear in mind that there are many facets to performance and that sometimes you need to take a step back in order to take two forward. Like for example i’m sure @Erik_Midtskogen understands this 1000%. When he’s grinding out the LSD, if he were testing 4DP, he’d probably see his 5 min number go backwards. But that is okay if the work he’s doing sets him up to get an even higher 5 min number (or improved other metrics) later on. There is a give and take throughout a season and a career and it doesn’t mean that you’re stagnating or backsliding.
I’ve been using the Sufferfest since 2014-ish. Not sure exactly when I started, but I bought all the videos in 2015 before my Knighthood. I still have the thumb drive I put them on somewhere.
But I’ve only ever done two crit races. It was too chaotic for my liking, so I’ve reverted to riding various centuries each year and group rides with friends who are nearly half my age.
I use the Sufferfest for three reasons: 1. It’s enterpaining, 2. I get to ride in the Pro peloton, 3. the community is amazing.
FF is the most accurate testing protocol that I’m aware of, and the only one that sets up my 4DP numbers so that I can prepare for my events. Racing at 55 years old isn’t something that I’m particularly interested in. Road cycling with inattentive drivers is more than enough risk for me.
I agree with your viewpoint on Full Frontal. As long as you have paced it right on the 5 and 20-minute intervals, and hit all your intervals to the true best of your ability, there is no “failure”, or any reason for shame or disappointment over your results. The results simply are what they are: useful information. Don’t think of it as a “test” to pass, but simply a necessary assessment of your whole power curve that will allow the program to set the right targets so that you get the optimal dose of each type of training intensity required for improvement.
Even a ramp test can’t achieve the same, because it can’t tell why you got the result you got. Maybe your FTP isn’t so great, but you have great VO2. So that would mean that you would start hurting relatively early in the ramp test, but as the required power exceeds your FTP, your VO2 power kicks in and allows you to hold on for longer than most people with your FTP would be able to sustain. And you would get an artificially high estimate of your FTP. And if you have an explosive attack or a rocket-like sprint (or the opposite) no ramp test is going to have anything to say about that.
I have my own honest-to-goodness FTP test. There are often hill climb races on the “Road to Sky” route on Zwift. From the start of the race to the time I come across the finish line is usually right around an hour. I put my Kickr in level mode, and grind it out. Not only does this tell me what my real FTP is, with no interpolation required, but it turns out to be really good training, too. In the days after I’ve done that, I notice a reduction in my heart rate and perceived effort level on shorter intervals. HIIT is great, and gets improvements on longer intervals from training short efforts. But if you mix it up now and then with some SS work, you’ll get improvements coming the other direction from the longer efforts, too.
“Chaotic” is a good description of crit races. “Nerve-wracking” also fits. I hear you on the risk factor. In 2019 I crashed in a crit race. I don’t remember anything about the crash, because I woke up in the hospital with a list of serious injuries that kept me there for 11 days, and then in physical therapy for months. My teammates told me someone swerved across my front wheel at about 34MPH (according to my head unit). This apparently put his skewer into my spokes, ripping most of them out and causing my wheel to collapse into the fork and frame. The result was that my bike catapulted me high into the air, from what I’m told. It was two months before I could even walk vaguely normally.
But I’ll still do crit races, because in the U.S., that’s pretty much your main option. Classic-style, long, mountainous road races are too expensive to sponsor, because of the car-based, lawsuit-happy, CYA culture of the U.S. And so, I have maybe three of those in a year within a reasonable drive. But here in NY, you can race crits after work most summer weekdays.
I’m using training peaks now with the Sufferfest all rounder 12 week plan, (wahoo set up for me, it’s named something else at training peaks). It does work, sort of clunky with lots of confusing things but it does work and upload the workout to the bike computer so you can potentially follow along outside.
I’ve got a power meter, and a heart rate monitor. My biggest issue is perhaps my head unit. I’m using a Lezyne Super GPS Pro Enhanced and it doesn’t show all the targets and current readings that you see on the PC. Other bike computers might work better not sure.
I used to use TrainingPeaks with SUF because they used to be more integrated than they are now. So, I used to download my outdoor workouts onto my Wahoo Elemnt. It worked pretty well, because the workouts designated for outdoor rides were longer rides with longer intervals. So if I got stuck at a traffic light in the middle of a 20-minute sub-threshold, low-cadence interval, I could work around that. It wasn’t as if I was in the middle of a set of Pain Shakes, and being stopped for a minute was going to ruin the whole set.
I had actually hoped that The Sufferfest and TrainingPeaks would just go ahead and merge. Each of the two platforms has technology and content that would benefit the other to a great extent. I guess at this point, it would actually be Wahoo that would be wooing TrainingPeaks, or the other way around.
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