I HATE the 4DP

I just hate the 20 min FTP test!! Amazing how many mind games can be played in 20 mins!!!


That’s the Sufferlandrian time warp. As you approach the singularity of maximum suffering, you are actually riding for a full hour, while to the outside observer, only 20 minutes have elapsed.

And that’s why they don’t deduct 5% from the average power.


Yep. My normalised power for the test I took this afternoon was 7 watts over my FTP. First full monty I’ve taken in…a long time (since before I had kids). Brutal but got increases across the board and a new rider type (sprinter). The last few minutes of the 20 minute effort were awful though.


Welcome to the power club!



+1. Looks like a well-run test.



Had a solid Half Monty Wednesday, actually joked on another thread that maybe, just MAYBE, I could be looking forward to Full Frontal today.


@#$% hell I hate that test. Ok, I’ve practiced it quite a bit, and actually had some really good results, but I HATE THAT TEST!

Still a sprinter, though after a full winter of addressing my weakness (MAP) my top end fell off a little bit (-78…sadface). But big jumps in AC, was able to better my MAP from HM, and held my HM FTP. And look at my pretty new graph! I appreciate the symmetry.


So no surprise after MAP winter that my weakness is once again FTP, so guess I know what I’ll be doing this spring. Honestly though, I’m sticking to twice a year for FF - not counting when I do it as an ERG workout just to keep muscle memory.

On the plus side, I feel like this is how I know I’m doing it right…


Where do I find that bar of personal bests? I can’t find it on my iPad SYS app.

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It’s from the “badass power records” on the old SUFF app that I’ve not deleted yet…because I still want my badass power records.



Thanks. I had a feeling that I recognized it from the “old days.” Wish I’d kept it too…


Spotted my plan includes violator in a few weeks. Have managed to avoid it so far. Suspect will be pretty brutal! But I actually like half is easy and revolver so maybe it will be similar?

OK, with the day past, and on reflection, I should clarify that I hate FF in a good way!


Don’t want @David.McQuillen.KoS and the minions to feel bad.

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@jjarvis, not for me they aren’t. Half is easy is straightforward for me and revolver more than doable. But violator is the one workout that literally destroys me (with the exception of FF of course).

All to look forward to… :grimacing:

I really hate the 4DP. I feel that it’s set up for competitive cyclists who race. The need to need to do an evaluation that requires extensive prep - a week prep plan, plus extensive prep to use the levels vs erg - is all week and good. But it’s crazy for the average to better crazy for someone who just wants to ride well.

I’m more of a serious sport cyclist - ride 150-200 miles a week in season, 7k miles a year, speeds in the mid 18s when I’m solo and mid 19s to low 21s in group ride. I train all winter so I can hit the roads running. So while I’d like a reasonably accurate profile of my abilities for winter training plan. But commitment and focus required to the 4DP is way to much, creates anxiety in trying to do my best, and so I fail more often than I succeed.

Finally, I’m an aging cyclist - 68 yo. So there are other concerns like an atrial tachycardia. The changes in effort during the 4DP, and degree of effort require has kicked it off in about 75% of my efforts kicking my heart rate up to 190 to 210 bpm, even though I’m receiving effective treatment. The 4DP is not for a typically aging person.

Something like the Full Monty with AC and NM adde would really work better for me and people like me.

It really has gotten to the point that I am seriously looking at other programs that better accommodate my needs. I wish there was a way I could direct this to someone at Wahoo so they could understand.


If all you’re looking for is HM plus AC and NM, you can use the sprint results from FF cuz they’re independent of the rest of the test. You can use your AC from level mode in the Omnium or try the same in Half is Easy or GCN’s Max Efforts minimum time. Those will give you a GREAT sense of what you can realistically repeat.

If you read through the 115 posts in this topic, there are lots of options for you and how you treat FF. I wax and wane between dumping FF completely and considering giving it one more go.

I am one of the fortunate people where HM is so closely predictive of my FF results that I could quite easily just use my HM results. I always have been a sprinter, easily hitting over 1000 watts for my 5 sec results that are, frankly independent of FF anyway since they come right at the start of the test.

Considering that, the only thing missing from the HM equation for me is the 1 minute effort which doesnt form the bulk of the workouts in SYSTM anyway and if I need to dial down AC efforts consistently, I can always just tweak that on the fly or make an adjustment in my Athlete Profile. You can also get a pretty decent sense of your 1 minute AC by seeing how you do at the end of Omnium.

The point for me is that while there are lots of other programs out there competing for our subscription dollars, there is quite literally nothing out there that provides the value that SYSTM does for an indoor (and outdoor) training app, imho.


Thanks for the suggestions, I appreciate them, and will give them a try. But if Wahoo wants to gain numbers, they still need an alternative to the the intensity required perform the 4DP. I know very few sport riders I ride with who would go through this. And actually I’m the only one in my circle riders crazy enough to do this.

Adding insult to injury, after doing the 4DP prep plan and failing 4DP, Wahoo sends an email that maybe I need to do the 4DP plan before my next attempt. Really pissed me off to say the least. If it actually worked, I would have finished!


How do you fail a Full Frontal test?
Your effort is your effort, indicative of where you are at physically, and likely mentally.


I don’t hate it, I just don’t do Full Frontal.

I’ve done it once, appeared that I’m a Time Trialist with a ‘sustained weakness’. I doubt this will ever change, so I’m ok with that. I’ve prepared a couple of times for FF and life got in the way of proper preparation, so I have postponed it numerous times and eventually just didn’t do them.

Like you, I don’t race. I don’t even do group rides. I don’t care about sprints or 1min efforts. MAP means something for me as the hills here are short and steep. FTP is a base number for all the workouts. Therefore, I only need to do Half Monty every once in a while. So I have decided only to do FF when I really feel like it and have two weeks to sacrifice for it (1 week prep, 1 week recovery)

In short: Find a way that works for you. If you don’t like Full Frontal, don’t do it. Life’s too short to hate.


You quit, I guess…