I HATE the 4DP

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thanks a lot, i appreciate it. I hope so too! At least hope it translates into being able to have fun and hang on for longer.

I have not lost weight, in fact maybe gained a little over the past years but not in a bad way. I was a runner previously and then a super lightweight when i first took up cycling way back in the day. My watts/kg might have actually been higher ten years ago (because i weighed like 135) but i’m a lot more durable now so i’m okay with the tradeoff. I hover around like 68 kg and that has proven to be a healthy, durable weight. Dropping a few pounds lower is fine, but too much lower and it very quickly becomes not fine

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This year has been a good one, so far. Took a couple months to shake off the tendonitis after my KOS attempt in Nov. Started back gently in January and then back full with the TOS prep plan in Feb. I did the TOS (focused) and then the Post-TOS plan into March and then moved on to the Mountainous/Hilly Gran Fondo plan.

I think it was the perfect choice for me and I saw a nice steady improvement. I twice took 2 week breaks - the first in April for a side quest and the second in May for a 2 week vacation - so the plan ended up taking 16 weeks, but I think those 2 week breaks actually enhanced my improvements by allowing my body to better absorb the training, because both times I returned feeling fresh and was able to jump back in without any issues.

I really enjoy the long distance plans because it seemed like the shorter All-Purpose plan often had 4 HIIT sessions week per while the longer distance plans usually only have 2, sometimes 3 HIIT sessions per week. Plus, I really enjoy the longer rides, and I always felt I was missing those - and the benefits that come with them - in the shorter plans.

I was really eager to do some testing because I could feel all the gains I had made, especially in the last 2 weeks when I was able to hold sub-threshold and tempo paces for long periods of time (especially my Tempo 2x25 that I turned into a 4x25). But rather than just jump right into a 4DP test right after finishing the Gran Fondo plan, I decided to first take some time to recover. Last week rode a personal highest 243 miles end with a 4 hour, 72 mile indoor ride on the trainer on Saturday for my “Gran Fondo Event Day”. So this week I included more Yoga and SUF Strength training while doing only 30-60 minutes easy spinning cycling efforts and more walking, and on Wed I didn’t even touch the bike.

So, even tho my graph still showed my form wasn’t in the “fresh zone”, yet, today I decided to take a peek at my fitness and do Half Monty. I could tell my legs were still feeling some fatigue, so that really justified my decision to put off Full Frontal until the middle of next week. But, despite the fatigue, I was already testing over my current MAP score before I even started to feel I was getting close to stopping. My current MAP was 303, and when I started my last step HM had already told me my new MAP was 309. I knew I could likely get all the way through that last step, but I was going to have to push myself. However, I wasn’t in the mood to really push myself - and my son walked in and I didn’t feel like putting on my pain face while he was wandering around my room hanging on my handlebars and pushing on my break levers and gawking at me. So, I allowed myself to enter the erg mode death spiral sooner than I needed to and died around 30 seconds into that step. I know even the HM test says that “everyone feels like they could’ve gone longer”, but I actually really know I could’ve pushed myself to end of that step. If I hadn’t already known I was up, I likely would have kept pushing myself. But, already knowing I was significantly up and not wanting to really push myself, I was already pleased to see my MAP jump up a good bit and have no regrets about stopping when I did. Because when I do Full Frontal next week, who knows if I’ll be able to hold these same numbers.

My LTHR was up +3 from 155 to 158.
My MAP was up +15 from 303 to 318
My FTP was up +12 from 245 to 257

Last year in Oct I managed to hit a MAP of 311 in FF, but have never been higher than 303 in any of my HM attempts. And in Aug I hit 255 FTP, but that was virtual watts on my dumb trainer. So 248 last Oct was my higher previous smart trainer FTP.

So, I’m excited and nervous to do Full Frontal next week. Trying not to hype myself up especially because I usually seem to have a lower FTP during Full Frontal. :crossed_fingers:

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@emacdoug Congrats! This is very timely and helpful feedback as I am a week and a half away from starting Hilly Fondo and was already planning much lower volume next week so happy to see how it benefited you.

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Oooo, and I just realized that after losing a couple pounds I actually have an FTP that’s now over 3.0 w/kg!

Still have a long way to go to get my FTP to 300+ (and I won’t always be able to make such big improvements), but it’s moving in the right direction, so I’m happy.

An interesting note on the technical side. When I do a Full Frontal, my FTP lines up almost exactly with the estimate on intervals.icu. However, with my HM numbers, intervals.icu estimates my FTP today at only 250 rather than 257. So, I think I can thank SUF’s extra HR calculations for those extra 7w. :thinking:

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A week of lower volume before starting the Hilly Fondo plan is a good idea. You’ll get plenty of volume in the plan so that’s a good idea so you go in with fresh legs.

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Congrats!! Awesome progress. The 3.0 w/kg barrier is a big deal.

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congrats brother! great work. Regardless of whether you can hold those same numbers for the FF next week, the HM test still shows that you improved and that’s what matters.

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@devolikewhoa @itsbrianegan @JSampson Thank you!

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Nice!

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Well, I did my 4DP Full Frontal, today. I wrote up a report here:

Some good and some bad. I’ll likely just change my NM and AC back to what it was before. I have the same Sprinter profile as before. The only real difference is my weakness is now repeated efforts instead of VO2 due to my poor 1 minute showing. That may or may not be more or less accurate. :man_shrugging:

The real interesting thing is that my LTHR has now shot up to 162.

My highest LTHR ever was 159 back in December. Otherwise it’s usually been around 155, sometimes 157, a couple times 152 or 153. When I’ve been in better shape it was 157 or 158. So, jumping up to 162 was not expected. It was just 158 in HM just this last Friday. And although I know I probably could’ve gone maybe 30 seconds longer in HM, I doubt it would’ve jumped my HR up 4 points. Maybe this is what I get from actually doing a REAL recovery and not just pretending while still riding a high volume at low intensity? It’s not like I’m getting any more sleep. lol. Definitely not.

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To @JSampson, came across your 4DP guidance too late!!!

Will definitely take note and apply to it on my next 4DP test.

To all who is suffering and want to give up because it is too tough, I remember one saying from my golf coach.

“If you are not feeling uncomfortable in your new training program, it means that you are not out of your comfort zone and you won’t improve.”

So preserve and suffer for better performance!!!

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@Fatboi Sure - glad it was helpful. Basically the notes are from three sources plus some of my personal experience thrown in. I would recommend reading/listening to the following before your next test. I have listened/read all of these multiple times and try to do so before each test:

https://breakfast-with-boz-wahoo.simplecast.com/episodes/real-life-4dp-understanding-power-and-using-it-to-train

Also after you finish with your next test be sure to write down your notes - levels chosen, gearing, what went right or wrong, how you felt. It all helps to dial in for the next time you take the test. Use the notes section at the bottom of the workout results.

Hydrate and fuel properly and get plenty of sleep in the days before the test, practice breathing and also make sure you have chosen the warm-up routine that works for you - either some yoga or stretches or one of the on bike warmup videos like Ignitor or GCN Ready, Steady, Go. Some of us require more warmup and some less - figure out what is best for you ahead of time so you are dialed in.

Good luck!

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Grunter’s mid race pep talk in HHNF never grows old

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Write down notes and gearing? I forgot most of the thing (thankfully).

The day after I remember:
Sprint 1: use higher RPM coming in and higher level mode 1313W
Sprint 2: score 30 watts lower…
5 min: go harder next time 367W
20 min: ok for 10 minutes, suffer for 5, blank for 5
bit nauseous, walk around 297W (lame shy 3 of 300)
1 min: 15 second fine 45 second struggle 607W
run to toilet puke

Take home:
Read how to pace+ how to get most out of full frontal before the next one :wink:
Actually use level mode once or twice

Apparently my garmin heart rate monitor wasn’t accurate enough for Wahoo. I can just adjust it manually for 98% of the 20 min ave right?

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Sounds to me like you did it right. Your numbers are impressive! Congratulations on your first FF. And my condolences to your legs.

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Have done the FF twice. Second time since I had ‘experience’ it went better…until. I thought my pacing was good and I recorded decent gains but then i hit the I minute effort. I hit the gas, then the lights went out!! I barely finished!

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When u get to the 1 minute effort you are already 90% there!

Encouring words to see someone who did a KoS be this miserable in the 4dp though!

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I’ve done the same. Not so much “Peak and fade” as “Glare and fail”. It’s amazing how time slows when you’re giving it everything you’ve got. Your legs are going like crazy but the clock hardly moves

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I’ve often heard it suggested that for the 1 minute effort you should stand for the first 20 seconds then sit for 20-25 seconds and then stand again to get everything out that you have left.

For me, tho, it’s more like stand, sit, stand, sit, stand, die.

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When it gets to the two sections where it suggests that I walk around because it will do me some good, am I the only one that uses that short time to line down on the ground?

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