My thoughts on Systm after a week and a bit

[devolikewhoa]

I gotta be honest, so far i actually like the new platform. The new strength plans are great. There’s more workouts and they are more transparent, so as well as more plans available to meet your needs, it’s also easier to self program. I was pretty pumped about that. Similarly there’s a greater variety of the plans that i care bout most (i.e. offroad), so greater chance to find something that meets your needs.

Regarding some of the videos being nerfed, honestly it’s probably a good thing. Proper endurance training, there’s a lot of debate about things like, tempo vs. intensity, how many hard trainigns per week for the time crunched, etc. but most of the difference here is marginal: most benefits come from consistency and progressive overload, and those are easier to achieve when you’re not regularly over-extending. I think if you’re doing it right, then more often than not, yo ushould feel good. Not amazing, not perfect (save that for peaking), but pretty good and not, for example, sore for days after a workout. I think back to my rowing days where we had epic workouts like 25x500meters, all out, and they were great bonding and great memories but they probably weren’t the best way to train, day in and day out. It’s easy to get caught up in this attitude like you should be completely destroyed after every workout but i’m not sure that’s actually the case, even for hard days.

Here are some suggestions to help smooth the transition: maybe include the original versions of the sufferfest workouts, and special sufferfest badges you can collect by completing all of them. Keep sufferfest brand around as sort of a “club within the club,” so that people still have that thing to keep the emotional connection to.

[devolikewhoa]

forgot to add, definitely some teething issues (for example, i have a legacy plan stuck on my calendar that i no longer want and can’t remove) but ovearll nothing too terrible, at least as far as i’ve seen.

I’m about to go make use of the new granularity / visibility for strength workouts, and do a quick full body break from work. I’ve been doing a thing where im’ in the gym lifting one day a week, doing a full-body focus SUF strength session once per week. Once we get closer to the season, the gym day will switch from 8ish-rep ranges to 3ish, and the SUF session will switch to dynamic focus. Fun stuff!

[trainingwheels]

I paid for an annual SF subscription about 2 months ago partially on the promise of the SF Android app so I’m obviously going to ‘suffer’ until my subscription expires but I think by that time I’ll have seen and done all the SF has to offer. I think the problem for me is that I was invested in Sufferlandria even as a newcomer, The Sufferfest was a weird club I really wanted to be part of, I liked telling people I was ‘doing The Sufferfest’ it made me stupidly proud, it made me work harder. Yes, the videos are still there as many KoS will pop up and no doubt point out but it’s very clearly being phased out otherwise why did they bother to change the intros? There was absolutely no need to do that if the SF was just going to become a part of Systm. Mount Sufferlandria has gone, the bleeding eyes have gone, the whole glorious ridiculousness of ‘suffering’ is being dialled down, the goat is getting nervous I’d guess.

I get why they changed the branding, I do, but I just don’t feel the same about SYSTM because it isn’t glorious or ridiculous and it doesn’t inspire, well, anything because it isn’t a club I can really feel involved in, I’m completely ambivalent towards it, it’s just a platform, an OK platform for sure, but it just doesn’t have that hook the The Sufferfest brand had for me and I think there’s probably better offerings out there for me once I’ve experienced the SF content that’s left here.

I would’ve had more respect for Wahoo if they’d just shut SF down completely to be honest rather than trying to maintain that it’s “just an update, nothing’s changed” which I find a little bit disingenuous although I guess they didn’t want to refund subs and needed an initial captive audience if only to test their new Systm servers. I’m sure Wahoo’ll get lots of new subscribers and honestly, good luck to them, I just don’t think as it stands Systm has much to set it apart from other platforms and unless there’s some MAJOR SF content drops I think I’ll probably migrate elsewhere when my renewal comes around but I’ve still got 10months of suffering ahead of me, so, we’ll see I suppose.
[/quote]

Dead on. I agree. And although I agree with what you’ve written before this quote too I think it’s less important to me (which brings me to another realization - below). I spent the next two weeks after Sept 28 launch pretty much pissed and constructing many emails saying many things but never writing them as I saw people pile up on the side of all the great new advancements of SYSTM. I, like you, am looking at letting my annual SUF run out for the reasons you’ve stated.

My realization is there’s two crowds here - those predominately focused on the tech (android, calendar, app functionality etc) side and those predominately focused on what was ‘the culture’ of Sufferlandria. Everyone’s heard Mt Sufferlandria is gone; I’d add Abi’s video “Taking the Soreness out of Suffering” has been sanitized and is now entitled “Side Bends”. The build up of excitement toward release turned out to be more a feeling of being blindsided to those in the latter group. SUF is clearly to become scrubbed clean and I predict a year from Sept 28th that the current tech group will remain SYSTM’ers (looking forward to even newer shiny buttons to press) along with a whole new membership that comes aboard. Those new people will say things like, “I heard in the 'ol days - if you can imagine this, people used to ride their bike for 10hours just to get a title before their name!” - and some KoS will jump in and say, “It was glorious!”.

[JamesT]

@trainingwheels

My realization is there’s two crowds here - those predominately focused on the tech (android, calendar, app functionality etc) side and those predominately focused on what was ‘the culture’ of Sufferlandria

Pretty sure there’s another, rather large, crowd that will continue to be the culture of Sufferlandria, which is a state of mind after all, despite the recent changes. If you’re happy that your choice of grass is greener then fine, that’s your choice, just please stop weeing on other peoples’ lawn. p.s. yes, I do indeed have the most glorious lawn. And it’s all mine and you can’t have it

[JSampson]

@trainingwheels Not sure why there have to be two crowds - personally I am interested in both the tech and also the mythical nation. The new content is great - ProRides, On Location and I just finished the Creemee Ride today and it is right up there with ISLAGIATT on the suffering scale.

I also don’t agree with your comment on pricing. Trainer Road is $20 per month. Peloton is $40 and you need to buy their bike. Zwift is the same monthly price of $15 but you don’t get nearly as much content nor do you get the results that this platform offers. Among the other virtual platforms there really isn’t anything that mixes in the focus on plans, great content, strength and yoga and mental toughness.

[Martin]

@NickyLeary

The ERG is just not as good as other platforms in my opinion. Yes, this was true of The Suffefest too but SYSTM is supposed to be an improvement and I don’t see that. My Kickr is relatively new and has been checked by Wahoo

Wonder if this is something that can be helped?

For what it’s worth - I’ve used a Tacx and Wahoo trainer. I find the Neo2 and the Kickr react differently on all the platforms I’ve used - SYSTM, Fulgaz, Zwift, Rouvy and my experience so far is that while the platforms seem to send signals with different timings (though I have no internal coding knowledge here) and then there’s the implementation in the trainer.
I guess what I’m saying is from myexperience this has been more to do with the trainer software than the app, but the app must by definition play a part.
I can say for a fact, if I use a Neo2 then ERG is about as bang on as I could ever want on SYSTM (and was in SUF) which implies the kickr (v5) simply has a different ‘implementation’

Doesn’t change anything, just thought this was a good call out worth opening up.

[CBrweer]

Hello,

Had that issue, but, got a pc with better gpu and issue is no longer an issue.

[Peteski]

You would think that Wahoo trainers would be optimised for use on their own platform. I’m about to invest in a Kickr bike so I hope it plays nicely with Systm!

[gpsjared]

@NickyLeary

After a week with SYSTM, now I have some random thoughts…

Thanks @NickyLeary - using your feedback and that of others - bolstered by multiple inputs (media coverage, app reviews, Facebook, et al) - to the product and design teams. Much of this is already on our roadmap, which I agree doesn’t do much for you in the short term, but we’re looking forward to the opportunity to show you what we’ve got over the next 10 months (your subscription window) and I hope we move from C- territory to B+ or beyond in that time.

@jfc

… that being said, I wish there were also going to be a way to add a training plan that targeted simultaneous improvements in both Cycling and Running, but not necessarily in a Duathlon format. But hey, now I’m just being picky.

To satisfy my own curiosity (and fear of running which has created blind spots), what does a plan (or plans) like this look like? What are the goals & outcomes you’re looking for?

@jfc

You seem to have been responding a lot and collecting feedback since the launch

I’m all over this, thanks

@Heretic

There are bugs (like duplicate entries for completed workouts) that should have been caught in testing, but obviously were not. It makes me wonder if they did any scenario based testing.

If memory serves, we recorded approximately 30K activities during SYSTM testing by real users - both in beta with the help of Sufferlandrians in the community and in alpha with internal employees. Duplicate saves did appear in a small fraction of those activities. Could we reproduce it reliably? Nope. Did force refreshing the calendar resolve it 99% of the time? Yep. What I’m driving at is that eliminating bugs is a form of triage, and balanced with against other priorities.

I agree, it’s annoying and it gives me a new grey hair every time it happens to me… but to suggest we did zero testing makes me want to do the warm-down for Power Station on repeat… tl;dr known issues / bugs aren’t malice or laziness on our end, we want them gone as much as you!

@CBrweer

Can’t drag to Training Peaks …

Can you clarify what you’re looking for here? Do other apps allow you to drag a file and drop it into TrainingPeaks?

@CBrweer

We will soon give you[Wahoo users] the chance to drop workouts, and US THE ONES THAT USE GARMIN? Oh yes, we do not matter, we are ‘the others’ …

This is a valid concern, but on a technical/logistical level, it’s always going to be simpler to have SYSTM work with Wahoo hardware. We’re committed to remaining device/manufacturer agnostic where that’s feasible, and we’ll work with partners to achieve parity where we can.

@andrewmei

Only issue I’ve had as that SYSTM unlike SUF does not support the ability to mirror and play music via iOS at the same time as running the app. So cadence builds and drills etc are going to be a pain.

Huge pain point for a lot of people here, in reviews, in customer service and internally - the team’s working on it!

@Martynw

there is no capacity to create a plan which works round my work schedule

Your specific requirements and parameters may be unique, but many others have asked for ‘dynamic & contextual training plans’ where you could set some variables and have the app responsively produce recommended training - perhaps even accounting for setbacks, learning what works on the fly, and so on. It’s not an easy problem to solve, but not impossible either. Good thing we have the Wahoo Sports Science team. I’ve recorded your feedback as a “vote” for dynamic/contextual training as well as listed it under suggestions for new plans.

We do offer custom training plans as well, as @titanicus mentioned

[jfc]

@gpsjared

@jfc

… that being said, I wish there were also going to be a way to add a training plan that targeted simultaneous improvements in both Cycling and Running, but not necessarily in a Duathlon format. But hey, now I’m just being picky.

To satisfy my own curiosity (and fear of running which has created blind spots), what does a plan (or plans) like this look like? What are the goals & outcomes you’re looking for?

Glad you’re collecting the feedback in this thread, too.

There’s been some recent discussion about duathlon and running training plans elsewhere recently. From what I can tell, the request for duathlon plans can be mostly taken at face value (i.e., to prepare for an actual duathlon race event) but other times (as is more the case for me) it can mean that someone wants a cycling training plan that also includes running.

I see this in one of two ways (in addition to Duathlon plans):

1. Systm could provide an actual running training plan that lives on my calendar side by side with a cycling training plan (for athletes like me who practice both running and cycling simultaneously) or …
2. Systm includes a “running as cross-training” add-on (i.e., one that resembles adding strength or yoga to existing training plans) to add say, 2-4 runs per week on top of an existing cycling training plan.

Already, the addition of running workouts to the workout library with the launch of Systm is a nice start. Just need a way for them to be smartly added to the calendar in the form of a plan or add-on. In both of the cases above however, it would probably be important to have a selection of running levels and/or volume. Running can

As a comparable, Zwift has a training plan called “Multisport Mixer”. They also have a “Cyclist to 10k” running plan and a “Your first 5k”. I’m sure the Sports Science team could create something great here.

I came to cycling and The Sufferfest from a running background after a back injury forced me to cross-train and I “learned cycling” training here. I know this profile is far from unique (i.e., adult-onset cycling, esp. for aging runners) and that I’m not alone in my interest in doing both sports within Systm.

Thanks for listening!

[IsiSchneider_KoS]

@gpsjared

it gives me a new grey hair every time it happens to me…

might happen for a while but will dissolve over time when there’s no more hair left that hasn’t turned grey already and I know what I’m talking about

[Heretic]

You attributed to me a statement I did not make.

I did not say you did not do any testing, I said I wondered if you did any scenario-based testing.

[CBrweer]

Can’t drag to Training Peaks …

Can you clarify what you’re looking for here? Do other apps allow you to drag a file and drop it into TrainingPeaks? >>> Meant copy to Training Peaks to then ADD to Garmin Express.

I had used an app, in “free” test mode that did allow me to do so, but, I really don’t remember the name.

[Owen]

I second these ideas. Really like the idea of a running training plan supplemented with Sufferfest workouts on the bike. I’ve found my legs don’t fare as well with running only training blocks and I often end up injured, whereas when I’ve mixed my training with cycling, I reach a (running) race in one piece and often in better form - my marathon pb from 8 years ago was on the back of a summer of cycling/sufferfest with only a 2-3 runs a week. Haven’t managed to get close to it since when using running only plans.

[Jake]

Yes I agree. I have just started working out on SYSTM and one of things I noticed right off was the crispness of the ERG mode in comparison to Zwift

[toddsdonald]

I’m using a Cyclops Magnus and when I tried Zwift, (before I discovered Sufferfest), everytime there was a change in the terrain, even a slight 1% or so it was like hitting a wall. And coasting, or spin downs were non existent. When the terrain went downhill, it was still like climbing a wall.

Not sure how SYSTM is but I know Sufferfest was awesome with my smart trainer control, (a few drop outs and resistance loops but not enough to complain about).

Aside from Sufferfest I think RGT was the next best for smart trainer control, then perhaps Rouvy.

[CBrweer]

@CBrweer

Meant copy to Training Peaks to then ADD to Garmin Express.

Yes, sorry, 12hrs on phone with customers at times makes me talk/write like them, yes to >Meant copy to Training Peaks to then ADD to Garmin Express.

Since I cannot use my cell phone to do my outside workouts!

Also, have never been able to pair HRM with Samsung