Just to check my memory, I was able to alter (at least on Windows), the FTP level of the warm-up. If I altered the level, and then checked the do not change box, it went back to what it should have been.
I do not understand what you mean by when you hit the individual arrow keys, the individual adjustments get wiped out. I have always been able to adjust them individually without changing the other metrics.
@Still_D, I did Thin Air today, and I found it, with one exception, easier than before.
Normally, because I do not stand when riding outside, I do not stand when doing Sufferfest videos. This time I stood for them all, and since my form was lousy, it was the only time my heart rate rose to what the suggested levels were. To test that out, I did not stand one time, and my heart rate did not significantly rise then.
The first part of the video (the race for the Suffer prize) was almost easy. It was not until half-way through the climb (and probably because of the standing sections) that my legs had any real heaviness.
The other parts of the video were not difficult at all.
I should also add that even with the Kickr inclined for the elevations, the 9, 10, or 11% elevation did not feel like that climb would have felt outdoors.
I still cannot adjust the FTP sections without adjusting what I called “the warmup”. It’s not exactly warmup. It’s everything up to about the 15:00 mark, up to the first MAP sprint. If you have the time cursor on that and adjust it up and then click the box, it does seem to go down, but it’s a glitch. Move the cursor and it’s back up. Only things under about 60% of FTP remain at default levels.
By keys I meant actual keys, on the keyboard. You can adjust all levels mid-ride using the keyboard. So that could be a solution. Increase MAP 0% and FTP 6%, ride through that section and then hit the keyboard shortcut to increase everything 6% more. But the keyboard shortcuts wipe out the 4DP adjustments. All 4DP elements get the same correction then. So you either get 4DP adjustment or adjustment while riding, but not both.
Yes the standing sections add some difficulty for sure, particularly if you’re not good at or used to standing.
Regarding hill climbing, maybe more technical than you asked for, but the SUF/SYSTEM isn’t really a simulator. The relationship between cadence and power and your lowest gear isn’t modelled*, so hills are kind of a fiction. For a fake, example someone with an FTP of 350 watts might be doing 20kph on an 11% hill at 90% of FTP, and so can still do 90rpm. To slow down enough to run out of gears at that power level and need 60 rpm, they might need a 20% hill. A normal person might hit that at 10%, and of course it depends on real-world gearing. So 60 rpm and 90% of FTP doesn’t correspond to a set gradient for all people on all bikes. I think this is some of why gradient was removed from the display.
*This is by design, because the cadence and power relationship is determined for training outcome for specifically you, not to simulate a specific hill for a specific bike.
I am either using a remote mouse on Windows, or the touch pad on my iPad to directly press the buttons or check the boxes. I o not use the keyboard at all. I would be surprised if that was the difference.
I appreciate your detailed comments. I wonder if for the climbing sessions, I should change the gearing to make it “harder.”
The gradient is still on my display.
I am either using a remote mouse on Windows, or the touch pad on my iPad to directly press the buttons or check the boxes. I o not use the keyboard at all. I would be surprised if that was the difference.
I wouldn’t. It sounds like you’re referring to the onscreen mouse buttons in the settings menu. Yes, I can tune all those in detail with the mouse (in windows). But I’m not going to stop and do that in the middle of a ride while my legs freeze and HR crashes. That’s what the up and down keyboard arrows are for. But they raise all values simultaneously and they wipe out any differences you already set between MAP and FTP etc.
So recapping, ideally I could preset FTP only at 6% up. And then during the ride at 15 minute mark, just hit the arrows to increase FTP and MAP both 6%. now being +6 for MAP and +12 FTP, as needed. But it doesn’t do that. The keyboard arrows reset everything to the same value, I think the present FTP value and then increases everything to the same value.
edit: I suppose I could setup a mouse within easier reach of the bike. Maybe on the other side from the keyboard (but that’s where my towel hanger is), but really mousing around through menu options during a workout isn’t my idea of fun. Hitting the up or down keys on the keyboard is about all I have the coordination or patience for while my heart rate is in the atmosphere.
I appreciate your detailed comments. I wonder if for the climbing sessions, I should change the gearing to make it “harder.”
Well, SUF gives you two targets. Power and cadence, which usually is all there is really. If you’re hitting both, then you’re as hard as GvA wanted it to be. If you’re in level mode, for any given level there is at most one (but possibly zero) gearing that will make that power possible at that cadence. If you’re erg mode, you just need to be in any gear that’s high enough. The trainer will match torque as needed so long as it is capable of enough torque for your chosen gear and cadence.
The only thing I can see to make it harder is to increase the power target or decrease your cadence, if you consider low cadence “hard.” Anyway, definitely true that it seemed more like a hard climb (regardless of what percent that would actually be for you) when the efforts were higher.
You don’t happen to be on a Tacx NEO do you? Their constant torque mode is a close approximation to steep hill pedal action. (never, mind… kickr, right)
The gradient is still on my display.
Hmm… This seems to have come and gone, maybe with some rides. Maybe I’m looking at the wrong places and wrong rides. I just checked a spot or two in TA and didn’t see it, looked for options in settings, didn’t see any. I wonder if the kickr climb enables it. Of course on TA I do see gradient it in the actual video in some places, along with the race leader, not as a software overlay though, which used to be on the right side.
I really really hope that the Wahoo Science team will review the workouts data in the near future and if neccessary they will adjust again.
A very serious candidate for re-adjustment is The Wretched… that one was my fav but currently it’s a tempo workout… still enjoyable but very very easy. Way more easy than the current Thin Air.
You cannot adjust the percentages for The Wretched because it could be too much very easily. The Fight Club also much easier but in that case you can incease the AC very easily and you get back the good old suffering…
I think Heretic means using a lower gear in Erg mode which reduces flywheel inertia and makes it harder to get over the “deadspot” in the pedal stroke. Like riding up a real hill, when a moments let up brings you to a grinding halt.
I really do not find that to be too difficult if I am not doing it frequently.
There are really only three situations I find myself in:
The Kickr Bike does display the gradient and it changes over time as the bicycle inclines.
@JGreengrass explained the rationale behind what I was saying.
The next time I am on a Tacx Neo I should check the Kickr vs. Neo comparison.
Yet in Systm it doesn’t calculate elevation gain? I liked the fact that it did the change in pitch but after using it for a while and it not using that for any data points, I now do almost all rides with that feature turned off on my Kickr bike. Yeah it’s interesting, but what’s the point?
I’ve got the Climb and I LOVE having the bike go up and down in the SYSTM vids. It really REALLY helps keep me mentally engaged in the work at hand. As for recorded elevation gain on SYSTM (or the lack thereof) I honestly couldn’t give a fiddler’s fart about that. SYSTM, unlike Zwift or Rouvy or FulGaz or RGT is not a sim so the elevation component is for both enterpainment purposes and muscle recruitment. For a short while my Climb was down and my motivation to ride dropped like a Couchlandrian spotting a donut on the floor.
And this is why there options in the marketplace. It adds nothing to my experience at all. Glad you find it of value.
It does exercise the muscles you would use on a climb. That helps build the mitochondria and blood vessels needed, as well as the nervous system improvements for muscle recruitment.
Eventually, the software will evolve to keep up with the hardware. Let us just say that right now SYSTM software development leaves something to be desired.
First time doing Thin Air today, to boring and no suffering. Fresh numbers after 4DP two days ago. Heart rate never above 83% of max. Maybe ok for a sweetspot session, but thats not the kind of sessions I want.
Maybe add the harder older versions (Nine Hammers etc.) in the filter for Sufferfest workouts and default the easier versions… As my wife often says “what’s wrong with you?”
If people are finding the workouts ‘easy’ then may I suggest you go and try the Pro Rides? These are super hard: but I will take the coaches professional view on the workouts over machismo. All I know is since the Sports Science started playing a larger role my fitness has improved dramatically and I have gotten faster and stronger: without feeling exhausted all the time.
This, I know to be good.
Long may the science continue - I don’t see many pros killing themselves on every single ride.
@washsaint Same for me - FTP is up another 5% since October. The science seems to be working fine for me.