Trigger point for MAP focus found in difference between MAP and FTP?

Training
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Just did a Half Monty today as part of the All Purpose plan. I will have to admit it had been long since my last test when I started the plan, but still I have a feel for whether they are far off or not. They might have been a bit high initially, but when I finished Nine Hammers “comfortably” last week, that is usually a sign numbers need recalibration.

The test showed a decent increase in FTP (from 327w to 349w), whereas MAP only had a slight increase (from 422w to 428w). This made me think about having to “lift the ceiling”, i.e. focus on MAP after completing my All Purpose plan to reduce the risk of stagnating. Furthermore, this made me think whether there is a trigger point for when MAP should get increased focus compared to FTP (e.g. by doing a MAP block) found in the percentual difference between MAP and FTP.

Based on today’s HM;
(MAP-FTP)/MAP=18.5%, alternatively
(MAP-FTP)/FTP=22.6%

I suppose like all other metrics this is highly individual, however, listening to the 4DP episode of The Knowledge podcast, I was hoping maybe @Coach.Mac.C or @Coach.Neal.H had some insight from the huge amount of data they have access to.

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A MAP that is only 115% of FTP is flagged after full frontal as a potentially invalid result. In previous FF I was still assessed as having a MAP weakness when MAP was only 120% of my FTP. After a 12wk all purpose plan based on my rider type it went up to 128% of FTP!

At only 118% yours is clearly something to work on, I’m sure a a coach will be along in a minute to advise how.

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Excellent questions!
Remember the story about Taylor Phinney in the Knowledge Podcast? His MAP was remarkably high relative to his FTP and compared to seasoned Pros. One explanation during the FTP Podcast was that Taylor‘s FTP was not developed yet fully due to his young age. Remember: MAP correlates strongly to VO2max. Of course a high MAP needs hard training, but can be developed „sooner“ (at a younger age). High - or fully develped - FTP takes years.
But back to your numbers: My best guess is to try to boost your MAP. But don‘t be to focused on just one dimension. There is a reason our coaches call the Sufferfest approach 4 dimensional.

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I was taken down a rabbit hole on another forum when others spoke about the 80% rule, which leaned towards the nuance of fractional utilization, the relationship of your FTP to MAP/VO2, and was offered an article which I found interesting.

The other aspect I found interesting is that the required training to raise FTP differs depending upon where you sit below or above this 80%, the caveat being that professional riders seek to be around 81-82%.

A rider around 86% should be doing different training stimulus than someone who is 80% and (substantially) below. The example given in the Final Considerations seems to help clarify the picture.

How relevant this all is I will not take a stand, but it did broaden my scope to the subject and increase my confusion on lifting my ceiling.

Will be good to hear from Neal and Mac.

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Somewhat anecdotally I’ve observed that my MAP is typically at 120% of FTP if I’m not feeling particularly well trained, and up to 125% if I’m on a good plan or feeling ‘fit’. I’m sure 125% isn’t the upper ceiling (nor 120% a floor), but I’ve seen it typically go within that range. If I’m at 120% I will certainly try and do a MAP block to improve there.

Maybe I’ll try and conciously push beyond 125% one day. FF has always told me that my weakness is VO2. I like MAP workouts the most, I don’t like the accumulated fatigue from too many of them.

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MAP workouts are awesome workouts to push both ends of the spectrum. And yes, as @leebo cautions, too many of them in close succession can lead to digging your grave! I would recommend doing a MAP Block and then doing a Full Frontal to get a better idea of what is going on with all four metabolic metrics. I also love to plug SYSTM strength. The program does an awesome job of increasing muscle recruitment, balance, and helps with injury prevention. Keep us posted on your progress!

  • Coach Corey
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Thanks for all the great answers. Sounds like my plan to do a MAP block following the completion of All Purpose is the right one then, although MAP at 122.6% of FTP isn’t necessesarily that bad. And yeah, strength is added to my All Purpose @WahooCoach_Corey :muscle:

Did the Tool Shed yesterday, and Cash Register the day before, and man did I feel the new numbers. Cannot remember Cash Register ever having been that hard before, and for Tool Shed it was almost like the MAP intervals were easier than the FTP intervals. Until I arrived at the final two hammers at least, then I eventually caved and switched to level mode and gave it my best.

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Status update nearly 2 months down the line.
Short version:
Holidays caused end of plan FF to go south, but adjusted numbers based on feel (FTP 9 W lower compared to mid-plan HM). Into last week of MAP block now, not sure if I should do FF :grimacing:, HM :neutral_face:, or just start a new plan with manual adjustment of FTP and MAP :smirk:
Which plan? Not sure. Considering Mountain Fondo, All Purpose (again) or Time Trial, all high volume, 3:1 with strength, yoga and mental training. What would be the main differences between them?

Season goal: Have signed up for a tough race/sportive end of June: 430 km with 4600 m ascent. Will do a few other races as well leading up to it.

12 week plan and then a couple of buidling blocks, or the other way around? Not sure, and would appreciate input.

Long version:

Was supposed to do a FF on Jan 1st, however, as I was driving home from Christmas that day (9 hours drive), and had more or less 2 weeks off the bike it did not seem like an excellent idea to do FF, so I loaded the FF prep plan to do it a week later. But with those 2 weeks off the bike I do (in hindsight) believe I was not fully back to the same leves as before Christmas with just an easy prep week, thus the FF became an epic fail in terms of completion, but after the worst disappointment was over, I felt I still had some answers. My MAP did not seem far off the result from my previous Half Monty, whereas my FTP felt somewhat over-estimated. Adjusted my FTP accordingly (9 W lower to be specific) and started doing a MAP building block (3:1) as planned, now being in the final week of the plan. Still, to complete the January challenge, the last week has been quite a bit harder than according to the plan.

I do not really look forward to the prospect of a new FF shortly, or even a HM for that matter, but feel like a test is in order to update my numbers, or verify the feeling they haven’t really changed much. As the legs feel a bit dead right now, that could change with some rest.

Then the question is; what comes next? I am considering either the high volume 3:1 Mountain Fondo, All Purpose, or Time Trial (with strength, yoga and mental training). They all seem quite similar to me, it appears the main difference would be MF has somewhat more focus on long slow duration in the weekends (would appreciate some coach feedback on any/main differences of these plans).

Have signed up for a race/sportive in the end of June, 430 km long with 4600 m total ascent. Will do a few others (shorter) leading up to the event as well. Approx 21 weeks until the event, and not sure whether to do a couple more building blocks, then do a 12 week plan, or the other way around.

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@Magnito - hey man, good job navigating the holidays. You know it’s the beginning of February and you’ve got quite a bit of time before your event at the end of June.

I would probably work backwards from the event and plug your Mountain Fondo plan in with your event as the end date. The start date for that is likely sometime in the beginning of April.

That leaves us with all of March and most of February. I would suggest the All Purpose plan and set the end date to the Sunday before your Mountain Fondo plan starts.

Mindset is key, you have plenty of time, and the holidays are behind us now. Put your best foot forward confidently knowing you can accomplish your training. And if your training plan is not working out with your other life commitments, then I would recommend moderate volume and 2:1 progression. Success is defined by doing the best you can with what is available.

Good luck! :muscle:

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Thanks for the suggestion @WahooCoach_Corey!

My original take was doing the MF plan culminating at a B race 21st of May, and then do an easy week and a buidling block with FTP/MAP sessions. That is however a plan that would leave some empty space here and there, and your suggestion ensures the necessary consistency which perhaps is the greatest factor for success.

As for 3:1 vs 2:1 I felt through my 3:1 MAP block that my body is very well capable of handling the beating 3:1 gives. Time to get in the volume may be the biggest uncertainty, but from what I can tell the main difference between the mid- and high-volume plan is volume in the weekeds, which I will automatically adjust according to available time anyways.

Ready to crush it!

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