MAP vs FTP values


My MAP value is lower than my FTP value - this does not seem to be correct? My current training settings are as follows (assigned by Sufferfest unless otherwise stated):-

FTP - 200W (manually adjusted)
MAP - 186W
AC - 266W
NM - 578W

I do ride with power meters and my max 5 second power is 947W, my 20 minute power is a measley 197W. I have not completed the Full Frontal test yet but will do so once I am a bit more confident with pacing. When I am doing some of the training sessions on here, the MAP values seem to be higher than the FTP values in the graphics (i.e. the yellow blocks are taller than the blue ones) but when I start the workout and get to the yellow blocks, the wattage is lower than the FTP - is this correct?

Also, I would really like to know how I can increase my 20minute power - I am struggling with this. Any thoughts/tips on how to do this would be most welcome.



I see the issue. Your FTP is manually adjusted. You will have to adjust all of the other values to match. One thing is where did you get the other values if you haven’t completed Full Frontal? You might want to use the FTP value from that test. One last thought, your outdoor FTP might not be anywhere near your indoor. Mine are actually 30 watts apart.

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Hello Shaun,

You do not explain how you determined any of your metrics. However, generally NM > AC > MAP > FTP. The graphics prior to your workout show a typical power profile for the workout, but when undertaking the workout the various parts will be scaled relative to your metrics (i.e. 95% of MAP for 1 min, then 100% FTP for 2 min etc). As your input MAP is lower than your FTP the MAP-based parts of your workout will be too easy (or the FTP bits too hard).

Completing a full frontal would be great to set all of your metrics, though can be difficult to pace. Half monty could be a good stepping stone, though I would suggest manually correcting your MAP before you start (say 230-240 w, assuming you are happy with your FTP) just to make sure you don’t complete the ramp (and invalidate the test).

In terms of improving your 20 min power, consistent quality training is the answer. If you haven’t picked a plan, then this is a good way to structure your training and focus your efforts in the right places. Nearly all of the plans will seek to improve your FTP, but if that is a particular focus you could consider the time trial plan, or a FTP building block.


I agree with above.

If you are OK with FTP workouts @ 200W then personally I would adjust MAP to 120% of this as a stake in the ground, and do a 4DP.

Pacing the first 4DP can be daunting but it sounds like you have a starting point (FTP setting @ 200W). The other metrics will be sorted with a 4DP.

Using your outdoor 5s power for indoor training is probably not a good idea, I’ve always been able to produce more NM power outside as the mechanics are very different - that’s not to say there is no value in an indoor NM figure, but you will likely find they are different.

Considerd that FTP is usually considered about 90-95% (I’d lean towards 90%) of your 20minute power, why would you bump your ftp to 200?
FF just takes the value of the 20min as ftp because of the fact that there are 2 all-out sprints and a 5min all-out effort just before the 20min section. (This is what makes FF so brutal btw, because the 20minutes really feels like the second half of a 40min TT)

So I guess you have to find out, if 200w ftp is too high or if 186MAP is too low.
Is something like 9 hammers a breeze? → MAP to low
Do you struggle (overly :slight_smile: ) on upper Tempo workouts like cobbler/Teamscream → FTP to high

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True, I should of asked how that 20min power was established? Outside/inside, was it a test, or is it just your 20min best power on a particular ride? 4DP will give you a good starting point, use the figures you have to give you a chance at pacing it well. Anything else is guesswork IMO.

Hi Orange_Badger

Metrics were set on Sufferfest when I set-up my account. I think these based on the questions asked at time of account set-up? I was curious as to why the MAP value was lower than the FTP value when the grapics and comments in the training sessions does indicate that this should be higher. I have taken your advice and set my MAP to 240W as I am coping fine with FTP at 200W, and have completed the shovel and a few other tough sessions without flaking out. I guess more trial and error until I can get my pacing issue sorted and complete the Full Monty.

Hi Mowag.

Why did I bump up my FTP to 200W, knowing that FTP is normally set at 95% of 20min power? Well, I have been using the sufferfest for a couple of months now and have found some of the tougher sessions to be not as tough as I expected them to be (I have done 9 Hammers and Team Scream - survived both). I did also belong to an indoor bike gym a while ago where training sessions were held on wahoo kickr units (same unit as I now have at home) and my FTP was set at 250W - I have had a break between then and now due to a slight health issue, so obviously not where I was but felt 178W set by Sufferfest was too low/session way too easy.

MAP increased, and fingers crosed I can still make it to the other side!

Hi Jim.

My power numbers from Strava power curve, and power data from outdoor rides using dual sided power meters.

I see where you got your power numbers from. What was the 60 minute reading from Strava? That would be your FTP, without adjustment. If you don’t have one use 95% of your 20 minute reading.
And please watch the vlog post on the Sufferfest web site before doing Full Frontal on how to best pace the ride. It should help when you get to the 20 minute and one minute efforts.

I think we are talking past each other. You simply can’t „survive“ 9h and TeamScream with ftp set to 200 and map to 187.
In this scenario 9h should feel way too easy.
Anyways…. What the others said. Have fun establishing solid numbers in FF :+1:

Hi Mowag

Yes, 9 Hammers was too easy on the Yellow (MAP) sections, and my HR was well below ranges indicated, but on the FTP sections was basically within the indicated ranges - another reason I thought my MAP value was too low. I have now set my MAP to 240W, and have just completed Angels - managed to finish it but last set was a tough mental battle! Happier with revised numbers. Thanks everyone for the advice.

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If you don’t want to do Full Frontal, Half Monty would be a good alternative as it feels a lot easier than FF and would give you accurate FTP and MAP numbers which are the basis for 95% of the workouts. You could then manually modify your AC and NM numbers until you feel comfortable completing a Full Frontal. Regardless of what you choose to do, I would suggest at minimum that you do Half Monty. Then you wouldn’t have to guess at your numbers and that means the workouts will feel better and more accurate, and your training will provide better benefits.

Hi Shaun,

Cool, I know we keep banging the drum, but a 4DP is really the best way to go I think. It will set you up for a meaningful training block. Now you have your MAP set in a realistic place I think have at it with 4DP and get yourself on a plan :slight_smile:

Did you know there is a 4DP prep plan to get you ready?