I actually have come across similar differences with HM vs. FF. In my experience, LTHR is generally the same for both HM and FF. However, FTP and MAP is generally between 15-20 watts higher for both FTP and MAP relative to FF. I also find the HM easier to do and a nice addition to a mid-point tester. Since January 2020 when I became a Sufferlandrian, I’ve done FF 4 times. Three out of four have been “Climber” with one being “Pursiter.” Curious if HM will be revised in the future.
Just another data point for this thread, I started off with the HM test during the trial period a couple of weeks ago and then did the FF on Sunday. Results as follows:-
HM: FTP 273W MAP 353W AC 469W NM 958W LTHR 171
FF: FTP 273W MAP 359W AC 456W NM 782W LTHR 182 (Rider type: Pursuiter)
So basically HM and FF are extremely close for me, with identical FTP and MAP is within the noise.
HM did over-estimate my AC and especially my NM, but I realise those are merely estimates in HM based on average profile and I knew I would be relatively weaker in NM because I don’t do any sprint training and find it hard to get the power down fully on the trainer.
I would say that FF is far more dependent than HM on having a very good idea of what your FTP and MAP are beforehand so you can pace your efforts appropriately. I did actually use my FTP and MAP numbers from the HM test as pacing targets for the FF test, which may have influenced my FF results, but I really was right on the limit and couldn’t have pushed any harder. If anything I’m pretty sure I would have backed off slightly had I done the FF test blind. It was my HM numbers that motivated me to push on through the pain, especially in the last 10 mins of the FTP section!
It was worth noting that my LTHR was considerably higher in the FF test (182 vs 171) and much more in line with what I expected from my previous training data over the last 12 months.
Overall I’m very impressed with both of these tests and will be back in 12 weeks for an FF re-test. I will probably also do an interim HM test to check on my progress, although I’m not expecting massive short term gains as I’ve been training consistently for well over a year from a reasonably fit baseline. I would be delighted with a 5% improvement on FTP/MAP over 12 weeks at this point.
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Great numbers for FTP and MAP.
May I ask your age? I am 40, cycling for 5 and training for less than 2 years with SUF.
At 70-72 kg my NM is always approximately 1170 W and AC 430-440 W.
However, my best MAP and FTP ever were only 329 and 252.
I am coming down to 68-69 kg (181 cm height) and hope I will have a FTP of 4 W/kg soon. I am not sure if I will be able to break the 300 W for FTP in this life.
My last HM showed an improvement from 218 to 252 W (and MAP 288 to 317), since I was coming from Couchlandria before start the current 12-weeks plan. I hope I will be able to do a second 12-weeks plan in a row for the first time and see if I can expect further improvements for FTP and MAP.
Hi, I’m 52 with a very long on/off cycling history. I’ve been training consistently over the past few years and especially so in the last 12 months. So I’m in pretty good shape by my own standards at the moment.
My weight is currently 78 kg (height 183 cm) and the lowest I get down to is around 75 kg, so I’m a little taller and heavier than you.
You made a great improvement in your last test so I would imagine further FTP and MAP gains are still possible. It will be interesting to see how losing weight affects your power output. At 78 kg I feel stronger than I did at 75 kg and I suspect my FTP is slightly higher, although I don’t have a comparable SUF test to compare. But other FTP tests I’ve done over the last 6 months have all been around 260-270 W.
I’m also aiming for a 4 W/kg FTP so let’s hope we can both get there soon!
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Thank you, @Peteski!
Great to see you got nice numbers training consistently, I hope to get this consistency for the next 12-w plan and also keep health up to your age.
My best numbers were obtained @70 kg in 2019 and now doing HM, so the drop from my pre-12-weeks-plan 75 kg seemed not affecting FTP and MAP.
I hope to be able to burn an extra 2 kg of fat while maintaining/improving strength by means of the SUF plan with strength workouts. I track calories and nutrition balance using My Fitness Pal to avoid a big deficit of calories and big weight changes.
If I get to 68 kg I think I will not be far from 4 W/kg, but still a big gap to 300W.
On 11/22 I will have another FF to know how close to these goals I am reaching.
Hope you are getting close to your 4W/kg too!
Hello everyone,
I have a problem interpreting the results of my Half Monty test The software tells me that it cannot give me the results because the areas have not been respected I do not have an ERG mode sensor on my elite trainer so I can not be exactly to the power indicated How to then interpret my data according to the level where I arrived I had entered in my profile the values of a 4DP test that I had done a few months ago and I would like to compare the two tests.
For your informations when i compare average power on 1 min interval with target of half monty ramp, all stair are okay.
Thanks for your responses,
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Hi Thomas, if you. would be willing to direct message me the email account you use for your SUF subscription I can find your test and give it a look. The compliance checks are to ensure people follow the idea of a ramp test (continuing to increase until failure) but this can be problematic for folks without smart trainers.
I hope other than the bit of frustration here you have been enjoying your time using the app!
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Hi all,
Super interesting thread! And somewhat glad to read that I am not the only one who is struggling with this…
I am on SUF since May this year, did FF then and did HM 3 weeks ago:
FTP: 274 -> 300
MAP: 331 -> 359
At first, I was super happy with this improvement. I also feel like I have gotten much stronger since I started, so it seemed to make sense.
But with these new numbers, I am really struggling to complete most workouts and I must say it is quite demotivating. It really feels like I am training at too high intensity now and I feel a bit scared before every workout now 
But I am wondering: are the workouts designed to be this hard and was I training at too low intensity on the old numbers, or was I doing just fine on the old numbers and am I now training at too high intensity? (I know this question is impossible for anyone to answer as you can’t feel what I feel 
)
My plan now is to do all workouts at 95% in the coming weeks (which is halfway between old and new numbers) and see how I survive. Then do a FF in a couple of weeks.
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Did the Ramp today, but was rather disappointed and confused about the result. My old wattage values on FTP / Map respectively were 227/272, but 2 months of continuous rolling training has given me a boost. Monday i did Defender at + 5%, ie 238/285 without this being too hard. My feeling told me that MAP might be a little too high, but that I could still get a few watts to go on for proper FTP.
Gave up Ramp when the heart rate was at 95% of max, could maybe manage a few more seconds more but was happy to get the estimated MAP to 282. Cycled then 20 minutes at recommended heart rate (82-83% of max) with +/- 175 watts, which was slightly higher than the 168 that Sufferfest stated as an estimate according to MAP just before this part of the session started. Big disappointment when the session was over and FTP was calculated to 220, ie a reduction from previous values. This can not be correct, lately I have done many sessions with FTP set to 233-238 and completed without suffering being too hard .
Have I done something wrong, or is it the test that calculates this incorrectly in relation to the type of cyclist I am? (47 yo “time trialist”)
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Maybe it is just the test as I don’t do well on it either in relation to Full Frontal or perhaps it was just the day (rest, hydration, focus, etc). In any case I believe that there is an option to not update your 4DP metrics with the results of the ramp test which you might want to think about given how comfortable you have been riding at the prior metrics.
Did HM Wednesday,
MAP :330 (heart rate not even hit max)
FTP:274. (Never gonna happen)
FF today
NM:1130
AC: 433
MAP: 314. (Perfect pace, hit max heart rate nothing left with no surge at end)
FTP:249. (More or less what i expected, might have managed 255,but doubt it)
Sprinter with sustained weakness.
The ramp test i always gave me inflated numbers, think its the fast twitch muscles can fake more power for last 1.5minutes… vs sustained 5 minutes…
Wonder if I improve my sustained weakness if numbers will be more aligned, but sustained has always (6years) been my issue…
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Just follow up on this…
Did ftp progression 1 today. Had to up power to 270w to make it feel like the threshold effort and get heart rate close to right zone… 250w gave me zone 2 heart rate…
So it seems like after giving it all on the 5 min test, my tank was simply to empty todo proper 20 minutes… pointing to another weakness… repeated efforts…
Started a ftp block and then following it with hilly grand fondue plan , which on my profile have lots ftp work, so lets see what happens in 14 weeks time…
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Great thread. I blew up on the 20 min section of ff earlier this week and took great advice to try half monty. I am a pursuiter (and not a very fit one).
My FTP went up +39. MAP +32 and LTHR +15 (to 177, as I’m nearly 50 I’m not sure that’s good?)
Based on this I don’t think I should take the full gains, but any recommendations greatly welcomed.
@Peterjones I say go ahead and keep the full gains. Then just see how the workouts go. If they are too hard and you keep blowing up, then consider manually dropping them. That’s really the only to see if your new gains are “true” or not. Otherwise, congrats on the gains, and enjoy your new workout targets!
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Imho, the goal is to keep progressing and finishing the workouts.
Progressing can mean many things. It can mean increasing the numbers but it can also mean sustaining the same numbers for longer.
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Well, I had some interesting results from HM, this morning.
My previous SUF numbers from when I did the HM/FF double back the week of Oct. 6 - 10.
HM - Oct 6
LTHR 154
MAP 302
FTP 248
FF - Oct 10
LTHR 157
MAP 311
FTP 228
Then I did the KOS plan ending with my KOS attempt on Nov 14. Afterward I had some tendinitis in my left knee so I took 2 full weeks off followed by 2 recovery weeks including last week when I did a ramp test on Zwift on Monday which gave me an estimated FTP of 244. But after that I only did 45 and 50 minute recovery rides on Thursday and Friday. So, I was pretty fresh coming into HM, today, just lacking a bit of sleep the past 2 nights and a bit of an extended layoff.
Today’s HM results:
LTHR 159
MAP 302
FTP 242
So, my LTHR is at an all-time high. Likely reflecting my relative freshness. This is probably the first fitness test I’ve done after such a long layoff/rest period. I expected this to be reflected in my FTP, but it doesn’t seem to be. My MAP is exactly the same as it was in October, but my FTP was 6w lower.
I am betting that if I did FF on Saturday I would be able to get my MAP pretty close to 311, again. I seem to be able to get a higher MAP when doing Full Frontal, but I have trouble getting a good 20 min effort afterward. While on the other hand, Half Monty estimates my FTP to be higher, but my MAP a bit lower.
I’m confused with the relationship between my LTHR being higher, but my FTP being lower. But, maybe it makes sense that since I had a higher HR for the same effort that means I’m less fit because I should either have had a lower HR, or higher numbers for the same HR?
Anyway, I seem to have plateaued around my KOS effort so I probably need to do a good structured 12-week plan to get ready for ToS 2021 with new higher numbers. 
I had the opposite result yesterday with the HM. My MAP and FTP went up from my last FF result, but my LTHR went down. I always assume that heart rate results are very much determined by circumstance: hydration, sleep, general fatigue, etc…
I am happy since the power numbers went up.
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What do people think is a good session to test whether your new FTP numbers are liveable with after a recent HM?
I just did a HM (after my 1st FF a few weeks ago) and increased FTP by +8%/MAP +11%. Had recently been manually increasing intensity of some sessions by 4-6% just before this test (e.g. Bat, Cobbler, Chores), so maybe an accurate result?
I ask since I was planning on doing ToS on nuclear option - which just got a touch harder if I use new numbers! Expect ToS to be tough but would like to have a glimmer of hope of completing!
Asides from TOS question, do most of you guys simply go with the new numbers from HM at the mid point of a plan and then manually adjust down if it really is too much (I.e. too much pain / heart rate always above zone etc).
Question about “Climber” – is that just a TTer who is not heavy? i.e. the same relationship among the different parameters as th TTER but just lighter?
Or is it based on Watts/KG FTP, and you could, for example, otherwise be an Attacker or a Pursuiter based on the relationship among AC, MAP and FTP, say, but because your FTP watts/kg are over a certain value it makes you into a Climber?
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