Well that seems to be the ticket. Hit both power and cadence targets in The Chores and Vice Grips this week and, judging by the amount of Sufferlandrian Holy Water soaked up by my towel, not because the power targets were now too easy.
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Just to close the loop on my contribution to this thread. Today was the 4DP test to finish the 12-week all-around program. The numbers came in bang on as I estimated above - FTP and MAP halfway between the original 4DP and mid-program Half Monty results, with the bonus of about 10% increases in NM and AC. All is good.
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I started my SYSTM training plan (All Purpose) last September with my first ever 4DP test. The test results:
NM: 1009 W
AC: 431 W
MAP: 307 W
FTP: 254 W
When I did the Half Monty test, both MAP and FTP increased:
MAP: 333 W
FTP: 268 W
I was able to complete the training plan without too much difficulty. And then I did the 4DP test at the end of the All Purpose plan and the FTP dropped below the starting FTP:
NM: 1060 W (+51 W from previous 4DP)
AC: 478 W (+47 W from previous 4DP)
MAP: 317 W (-16 W from Half Monty)
FTP: 249 W (-19 W from Half Monty)
When I was doing the 20-minute portion of the 4DP, I started off trying to stay around the 268 W, the FTP I got from the Half Monty test. Before I got to the half way point, I was already struggling.
Then I started the Metric Century training plan using 249 W as my FTP. Workouts in the training plan felt easy. Most of the time, my HR was below the low limit of the HR zones.
I did the Half Monty test last Friday and these are the results:
MAP: 345 W (+28 W from the 4DP test)
FTP: 284 W (+35 W from the 4DP test)
The first real workout that welcomed me back to this new 284-Watt FTP was A Very Dark Place last night. Was that supposed to be a really hard workout because I had to take 15-second break during the 4th interval as I was struggling trying to get to the targeted cadence. I managed to complete the final interval without requiring another break.
So my question: Which FTP should I be training off from? The one from the 4DP test or the one from the Half Monty test? I did the “A Very Dark Place” workout in the All Purpose plan when my FTP was 254 W and I don’t recall feeling like I couldn’t finish the workout, which I felt a few times during last night’s workout at the new 284-W FTP. Is this 284-W FTP too generous for my ability?
@ktula It is pretty normal to struggle a bit with new numbers. Also personally it has been normal for me to jump around a bit with test results at times - sometimes it is not your day. Congrats on the new results and hang in there!
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I’m watching this with interest as I’ve had a similar pattern of numbers. In my case, FF followed by FTP block then HM giving me great gains. But was knackered towards the end of the FTP block which I followed it with. I then did a few weeks of a self devised plan followed by FF. Second FF completed early/mid January gave numbers for NM and AC good improvement on first FF. But FTP tiny improvement on HM numbers +5 and MAP tiny decrease -5 on HM. But all metrics improved on first FF. These numbers feel right, I’ve had colds etc which probably helps that, but a very dark place wasn’t that dark tbh. I’m working towards a time trial plan starting mid March finishing in a race in June that I really want to nail. I’m thinking of skipping the HM mid plan coming up on the all purpose I plan to abandon part way through but then doing a HM plus FF week straight before the TT plan. So to summarise, I’d like insights to basically the same question too.
Yes! Absolutely, one of the hardest. If I were you I’d keep using the Half Monty results, unless you find you’re consistently unable to complete workouts.
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Then you’re doing it right… I found that it takes a lot of mental toughness to finish that 20min section on target, but you’d be surprised how much more you can squeeze out of your system.
Looking back at my last FF: I used my FTP target from the HM and started to struggle at 7 minutes in - faffed about with the gears a bit (and reverted to the initial setting) and hung in there for another 13 minutes. I ended up with an FTP ~3% above my HM value, but boy was I wasted after that.
I’d stick with the advice from @bukharin and @JSampson and use the HM values.
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Thanks for the responses. I’m sticking with the FTP I got from HM. The second hard workout that greeted me to this new FTP was Defender 
. I had problem getting to the targeted cadence in the third interval but managed to complete the workout with a victory salute at the end.
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Congratulations, you’re doing it right. Be sure to pick up you celabratory bucket.
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Sorry for the grave digging but one demoralised Attacker is reaffirming what seemed a common knowledge to all but me. 
Initial 4D test on 30 July had me as an attacker with VO2 weakness, so the mountain Fondo plan was started with those numbers. Midway or so through the plan the Half Monty test was done (3 Sep) and my numbers went up big time, FTP 246W → 287W and MAP 305W → 355W.
I didn’t know any different so proud as a peacock I went on with the plan using the updated profile numbers. There obviously weren’t any really long FTP and MAP sessions for the remainder of the plan as I don’t recall bailing on any sessions. Some sessions were definitely harder but survived them all, could say there were some red flags. Even rode my first 200km event at the end of the plan in late October and felt good. 
The big fat red flag on inflated FTP numbers occured just last week with Phil Gaimon on the Long KOM Efforts in the last 15min when I just about passed out, completely and utterly failing to sustain the required efforts.
Fast forward a week and doing a 4D prep plan and my numbers are almost back to the initial values. 
All but FTP are up to 5% higher. To rub the salt into the wound, my FTP is 1W lower. lol
Looking at the data, my pacing was completely off today, never found the comfortable zone with cadence and power all over the shop for the FTP section in particular, hence, I’m confident my FTP is higher. Also, my heart rate for 20 min was lower than first 4D test but also compared to other longer and more recent sustained efforts, so again, pretty sure I could have done better. At least that’s what I’m telling myself. 
This is not just a vent (or is it a rant?) post, I do have a question too.
What have people done historically when they think they underperformed on the fitness test? I’m thinking about bumping up the FTP value, or am I just overthinking it all now?
PS. I solemnly swear to never do a Half Monty again.
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If you finished the Mountain Fondo with those new numbers without dialling down/ bailing on any workouts your numbers from the HM wouldn’t have been too inflated. Phil’s Long KOM Efforts could just be a workout that hits you more than others (we all have them) or you were off form that day for what could be a whole bunch of reasons. Sounds like you then didn’t do a great FF either - again could be for a whole bunch of reasons.
The most accurate path forward would be to look at what’s happening in your life (off the bike), listen to your body, recover/ allow for/ correct and then re-do FF. Or, since I don’t think your HM numbers would have been that far off you could re-do that - would be interesting to see what numbers you get there. Finally, sometimes I do change numbers manually if I feel they’re way off - usually just FTP and/ or MAP until the next 4DP or HM. Not as accurate but I think I’m getting a fairly good feel as to when the numbers I’m training with are in the ballpark.
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I think recovery post 200km has been good; a week off, then an easy week, followed by a week with Phil then a 4DP prep week. Fitbit and intervals.icu both had me fresh and ready for the 4DP. 
I know the off days still can somehow happen despite all indications of readiness.
Despite solemnly swearing not to do Half Monty ever again, there’s part of me is contemplating it. Already.
Yes, part of me wants to see if I can recreate the Half Monty results.
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I really like ramp tests. Going from the “I’ve got this” smug feeling to “arghhh, come on legs!!!”
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I advocate doing the 7 day test prep plan that includes a HM on day three, which sets the suggested targets for the FF on day 7. I find it makes it easy to pace the FF as I try to slightly beat the suggested targets, and it’s killer. I feel this give me very reliable test results and as is also a solid week of workouts.
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@doctordarko I set my second highest lifetime 10 minute power # on Phil’s climb. I was very dialed in that day and I can definitely see where that one would get messed up if you are not completely ready to smash the pedals.
That said I am also not a fan of manually changing the numbers as you can sometime make things worse if you are a bit off. I would suggest riding with your new numbers and then going by feel on a workout to workout basis and increasing targets when you feel it is warranted.
Sometimes results jump around and are not completely linear. We are not the same athlete each day especially if we have other stressors in life so I chose to just roll with it and keep focused on moving forward.
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Thanks for the sound advice everyone. I think for now I’m sticking with the latest 4DP numbers, doing an FTP building block plan and go from there, depending how I find the plan difficulty wise.
Chin up and suffer. 
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Just did my first HM on Saturday. My previous FF was a year previous, and I just restarted on Systm over the last month or so after barely being on the smart trainer the last year. Definitely felt like I was outperforming the previous settings on most of the rides prior to the HM, and my Fenix was also telling me my VO2 had improved fairly significantly the previous 5-6 weeks even though I hadn’t really been training too hard/long.
In the year old FF, I was an attacker with VO2 max weakness as well. In the HM results, my MAP went up about 9%, while FTP went up by 4%. I was surprised that FTP didn’t go up more, given how I’d felt and what my watch and Garmin Connect seemed to think.
Tonight I did the Downward Spiral for the first time with the new settings. That may have been a mistake, only 48 hours after HM. As soon as I started spinning the legs didn’t feel great. I will sheepishly admit that I dropped the targets 5% after the couple warmup efforts. In the end I think I could have gotten through it, but I would have been absolutely destroyed. With fresher legs, I guess that’s probably about right. So I guess HM is accurate?
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@Skibikehike Try doing one of the NoVid warmup videos next time (options for 10, 20 or 30 min) or use Ignitor or GCN Ready, Steady, Go.
In addition you could add a half hour recovery spin the day after a hard effort.
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Thought Id add my experience
FF - 13th September 2022
You are an Attacker!
| NM | 812 watts |
|---|---|
| AC | 430 watts |
| MAP | 306 watts |
| FTP | 252 watts |
HM Results Nov 3rd 2022
|MAP|355 watts| + 49
| — | — |
|FTP|292 watts| + 40
This was following the low volume Mountain Fondo program and didnt miss a session. The FF was the first test i have properly done in years and dont think i paced it perfectly and in hindsight I think i went to easy, my heart rate for the workouts following the FF never really got in the range it should have.
Since doing the HM though, the workouts are absolutley brutal, Im clinging on for dear life on every workout as too stubborn to lower the FTP but equally, because i can cling on, im trusting the data. The HR is going up 1 or 2 BPM over the sugegsted range but i figure that within tollerances
I dont see it increasing to the same degree when i retest also, im not convinced I will remain an attacker.
Stu
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Anyone else hide their potential MAP results whilst doing the ramp portion of Half Monty?
I found it off putting the first time I did HM and have since covered up that section.
And first time I didn’t do a lead in easy week to the test, had a day rest before with 3 +2 hour Z2/Tempo days before. Also no additional warmup either.
Standard results for HM over FF results has been 
in MAP (+2%) and 
in FTP (-2%), same pattern as previous results when compared to FF, an increase in MAP and a decrease in FTP.
I’m nonplussed on the results as the next 4/5 weeks are mainly VO2 work with AC and NM work before taper and racing starts mid January.
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