I'm back home in SYSTM again. Nothing else came close

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I let my subscription end in May to save a little money during warm season, when I rarely choose to ride inside anyway, and it’s not hard to come up with a few fill-in rides on my KICKR Bike without using an app for a few months.

I do wish WAHOO SYSTM offered a better discount for an annual membership than a meager 2-month savings, and I wonder if it wouldn’t benefit WAHOO more anyway by retaining members rather than losing them for longer periods and possibly even not getting them back, if they decide to test the waters elsewhere?

My own hiatus stretched from May through the end of December before I decided there just isn’t ANYTHING else out there (that I tried) that I like as much as SYSTM. I originally figured to go through the summer months and a bit into fall before returning, but then I got trying out other apps.

ROUVY first, for a 1 week trial that wasn’t long enough to learn much, but when told them it wasn’t long enough to form an opinion, they graciously offered more time. The real outdoors videos in endless locations were pretty good, far better to me than riding in artificial worlds life ZWIFT, but there is NO AUDIO at all, and that pretty much KILLS engagement. There are workouts, but again, just not very engaging at all. I also still didn’t choose to ride inside too many times, always preferring outdoors when possible, so I wasn’t attracted to it enough to subscribe.

FULGAZ was next, and I made decent use of it for a trial period, and also got an extension from them just by asking for more time. Kudos for that. Both companies were responsive and fair and helpful. And FULGAZ was OK as far as videos being nice scenery, etc. Loading times and navigating the app were painfully slow at times, simply because there are SO MANY videos of real life locations all over the world. There’s certainly an appeal factor in that scenery, (as with ROUVY,) but there IS JUST NO ENGAGEMENT! Nothing to really draw you into a workout or an “on location” ride. (They sure don’t have a MIKE COTTY!)

So on Black Friday, ROUVY offered a deal of First 2-months of subscription at 50% off the monthly cost, so $7.50 US$. I was already riding some rides indoors and missing having an app to use, since my free gift ZWIFT year had also run out. I decided to take ROUVY’s offer and started using it again when I needed indoor comfort.

ROUVY was just OK, but pretty soon it was abundantly clear to me that the lack of engagement of any kind left me bored. I could fill the time working on my laptop, listening to other things, etc, but that rarely is what I want while I ride.

Mostly, I want to either BE THERE with SOUND and with the KICKR Bike responding to GRADE CHANGES and maybe someone like Mike chatting to me about the ride or the area or whatever,
OR ELSE I want to FEEL the PELOTON alongside me in the RACE SCENE and the sound of wheels turning, gears changing, etc,
OR ELSE I want to have the SOUND EFFECTS alerting me to INTERVAL CHANGES with Power and Cadence and HR TARGETS, guiding me, encouraging me, pushing me to stay with the workout!

ROUVY and FULGAZ do have workouts, and they were decent enough “for government work” so to speak, but they just LACKED LIFE IN THE PRESENTATION!

WAHOO SYSTM, no matter what else may be imperfect about it, DOES NOT LACK LIFE!
I’ll be the first to admit that for those that want to get into a video game environment that puts other competitors in play at the same time and allows chases and drafting etc, ZWIFT gives that option.
And while that has some resemblance to reality, it comes at a cost of artificial surroundings that I just can’t appreciate, and then tops that off with such a video-game scenario that totally turns me off. I DEARLY HOPE that WAHOO SYSTM NEVER goes down that road!!

So after trying to make do with an unsatisfying ROUVY experience because it was saving me some cash, I knew it was only a matter of time before I came back to SYSTM. I figured I’d finish the 2 month 1/2 price timeframe first.

But today, I couldn’t hold out any longer! Our western mountains of Virginia forecast is for VERY COLD weather ahead, with a potential big snow storm this coming Sunday-Monday, and then staying below the freeze point for days on end. And what days go above freezing in the next couple weeks don’t exceed it by much, so I’m braced for a potentially long stretch stuck in the house. I made a huge crock-pot of chili today that gives me a good mental state for riding inside and seeing a snow-white world outside! :sunglasses: :yum:

SYSTM welcomed me back with a 14-day trial again too! EXTRA Kudos for that!
So tonight, I did “On Location - Med.Coast Massif de l’Esterel” with Mike Cotty. LOVED IT! I forgot my SYSTM FTP setting was still at an unrealistic 225W, so after 16 minutes, I realized the warmup was a bit demanding, so I checked the setting, dropped to 90% for a more manageable 203W that is still 10W above my current FTP estimates from Garmin for last several months. Then I completed the workout with pretty much what it should feel like if 203W was my actual FTP, so I’m happy about that.

DEFINITELY FEELS GOOD TO BE BACK HOME!

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Welcome Home ! Very much agree with your analysis having tried most of the other Apps at some point. I’m not down on Zwift quite as much as you as group rides and races can be quite engaging but I do struggled with the mechanical noise and clunky gear changes from my current set up and sadly can’t get virtual shifting.

I agree that the Annual Discount is on the low side and with a better deal might lock more people in for longer rather than many of us questioning the value for money of our subscription every spring.

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You’re hired, I mean welcome back!!

A good synopsis of many of the alternative options. For training, Systm still reigns supreme.

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I’ll add that the main attraction of Rouvy is doing group rides and races, of which there are many. It’s more like RGT was but with real scenery. Just riding through the scenery is nice, but not sufficient, IMO. As far as I can tell, SYSTM is still the best as far as workouts with entertainment go.

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Welcome back! Thanks for the summary of some of the other options out there.

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I use SYSTEM for the workouts.

I use Rouvy for real world ride simulation – managing power, cadence, gear changes, etc. which you really cannot do in SYSTM. If I want a Zone 2 ride I can do it, if I want to charge up a hill I can, or I can combine the two if I wish. I can try out riding or fueling strategies. There is more flexibility here.

I just put on some music and ride with Rouvy just like I do with NoVids on SYSTM. Some of the best focused workouts on SYSTM are NoVids.

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Thanks for your informative post. We’re your old rides still on your calendar or was everything wiped clean? I will probably stay with SYSTM when my current subscription expires in 2 weeks, but I’m very frustrated with the company for a lot of reasons. These include minimal discounts for one year subscription, only 1 new SUF video per year, no improvement in the technology when competitors are improving, not listening to customers, etc. I may give ROUVY a try, but I definitely like having audio to help me stay engaged.

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You say the discount is minimal. I believe it’s more than 17% off the monthly price. Do other apps offer significantly more discount than two months off? I’m sincerely asking, as that seems a reasonable discount to me.

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I haven’t looked into other Apps yet, but in the past the annual price was about 8 months of the monthly where now it is 10 months. At 8 months cost it paid for me to keep it all year so I would have yoga and have the bike app when it rained. Although I occasionally use the no vids for outside workouts, that isn’t enough for me to subscribe when the weather is nice. It won’t get over freezing today so I will be on the trainer. If the weather was better I would be outside.

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Rouvy offers a subscription hold for when you are not riding your bike

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ROUVY also allows 20km of FREE use per month. I’m not positive of this, but I think it allows this even if you’re not Subscribed OR on a Paused Subscription. I say that because I have only used ROUVY for 1 paid month after a Trial period, and I did NOT choose to Pause it because I just knew I wasn’t going back anytime soon, if ever, without any Audio with rides/workouts.
I got an email from them (still get those, and haven’t unsubscribed from emails) and the email offered the following:
“We’ve got your back. Now, you can ride 20 km on ROUVY each month without paying anything. It’s the perfect indoor backup plan for those unpredictable days.
Just log in to the ROUVY app to experience improved drafting that feels more realistic, new fast bikes, amazing routes from around the world, and much more.”
So for this option, all you need is to register and log-in to ROUVY. 20km won’t be much, but it’s something when you don’t want to go outside today.

I think ROUVY allows 1 Pause to your subscription per year as well, as @ozmadman referred to. This would be fine with me if SYSTM provided this, (although it’s really no different than stopping SYSTM and coming back when ready to pay again.)

And to answer @Mecons

Yes, all my old info was still in SYSTM and I can access my history, etc. I just looked back through the Calendar and it even had a few rides I had added and not done before cancelling. I don’t know how long that data would endure if I had not come back, but I missed 8 months.

Which brings me to the same point @Mecons made,

That is exactly the point on which SYSTM has missed the boat! In my case, it cost SYSTM my business for 8 months, during which time, I checked out other apps I would otherwise never bothered to, other than MAYBE trying a Free Trial period, but those are hardly enough to get to know an app, ESPECIALLY IF I already have an active subscription to SYSTM that gives me just what I want.

In fact, I got a free FULL YEAR of ZWIFT thanks to SYSTM testing and then sinking RGT. I used ZWIFT exactly 3 times in the first 5 months, while I still had SYSTM, and then used ZWIFT 12 more times in 7 months after canceling SYSTM for the warmer months of the year and not returning at all until this month. I really only used Z as a fallback on really bad weather days or when I just felt like doing a managed effort workout. Obviously, I am NOT a fan of ZWIFT at all.

Now that ROUVY has purchased FULGAZ, I personally think there is POTENTIAL THERE for it to become a serious challenger to other platforms. It will take money and professional personnel to be able to challenge ZWIFT, but if ROUVY offers AUDIO with more and more rides over time, as well as offering PROFESSIONALLY Designed and executed WORKOUTS that use great audio similar to SYSTM, esp. Sufferlandria workouts, I could see ROUVY becoming the next alternative to ZWIFT and SYSTM.

ESPECIALLY if ROUVY continues to offer their very reasonable PRICING PLANS, like 2 members for about $17, I think (with annual subscription) or up to FIVE MEMBERS on joint subscription for less than $30!
That is SUPER-HARD TO BEAT by ANY OTHER PLATFORM out there. In fact, the 5 for under $30 is good enough that I would likely accept that as a secondary subscription in addition to keeping SYSTM, just so I could do the outdoor GPS Virtual rides from time to time. And I would drop SYSTM for the warm months for sure if I had that backup option.

But as I said at the start of this thread, neither ROUVY nor FULGAZ workouts have the LIFE IN THEM that SYSTM has. There will have to be a significant change of personnel (IMO) to accomplish this. I dropped ROUVY because it was just too boring in its current format.

SYSTM would do itself a favor by working to offer a YEAR-ROUND subscription price that REALISTICALLY accounts for the fact that a percentage (I suspect a HUGE percentage!) of its members will only use it sparingly during warmer months, which can be 8 to 10 months of the year for many of us.
The OTHER thing SYSTM would be improved by is offering more actual video of outdoor rides that allow GPS data tied to the video for true VIRTUAL rides that count for ELEVATION on STRAVA and allow riders to virtually ride climbs like Alpe d’Huez or Ventoux, or to ride Ironman courses as FULGAZ does, or other iconic riding venues.
These options would raise the bar for SYSTM at a reasonable cost, IMO. They would NOT have to be given professional editing effort, etc. They could be simple video that uses the GPS data to provide resistance based on the road gradients and with the interface that ties this to the rider’s power/speed output. Tying music in could be done but isn’t critical for such rides, IMO. These aren’t so much workouts as they are experiencing the location at a point in time.
ROUVY just bought FULGAZ, so all of that video footage and the engine to run the app was right there for the buying, but that option is gone now.
I’ll stop now… :smile:

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Thanks for your reply. I mentioned ROUVY because that may be an option for me. Zwift will never be a good option for me. I used it 5 or 6 times when I had the free year, almost all to do races when I wanted to get in a 2 hour hard workout. I have the free Training Peaks Virtual and have only used it once. Biking in imaginary worlds is never going to work for me and I dislike video games (my adult children will vouch for that and still joke about my comments to them about wasting time). I would like to do some rides that allow me to practice pacing climbs and would love to do some of the courses virtually that I’m signed up for this year or courses that I would consider in the future.

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That does not really align with how SYSTM is set up, as the absolute values of the 4DP for most if us would not allow us to ascend the Alpe or Ventoux in the time spent in the video. Using Alpe du Zwift as an example, a person with a certain level 4DP might ascend it in 50 min during a set workout, where as someone with a lower level may only reach turn 3.

I believe Zwift has 25 km free per month, and SYSTM have available a free workouts even though you are not a subscriber.

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I don’t agree with this at all, and I hope that Wahoo don’t try to take SYSTM in this direction.

What makes SYSTM unique is that it is a training platform with engagement driven by (historically from the Sufferfest) exceptional videos tying together real racing footage, an amusing storyline with science-backed workout profiles under the 4DP banner.

Moving to the virtual world would mean an increase in platform competition and a loss of uniqueness, probably confounded by a lack of expertise. Given the slowing of recent investment in SYSTM’s core concept (as I understand it), I can’t imagine Wahoo has the financial backing to move against Zwift and Rouvy in this respect.

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Well, actually, what you describe is how SYSTM is set up NOW. When you do a workout, whether Alpe d’Huez or Ventoux, even if you do it with Mike Cotty, for example, what you see is video of HIS speed, regardless of what your own FTP may be, and you finish in a specifically limited timeframe. Yes, it’s all based on your 4DP settings. And that video doesn’t fluctuate in speed of delivery to you at all. It is what it is.

On the other hand, what I was suggesting as a POSSIBILITY is that IF SYSTM were to bring in something like ROUVY or FULGAZ, there would have to be a different model for running those VIRTUAL rides of real locations on earth (or Sufferlandria? :wink:)
Those videos would NOT have specific timeframes that they run, just as they do not on ROUVY/FULGAZ. They take as long as YOU take to conquer Huez or Ventoux, and do it as closely to reality as your own trainer and the SYSTM design provides for.

(And as an aside, those things DO VARY from one platform design to another, whether ROUVY or FULGAZ or even your own GARMIN or WAHOO device being the one that controls that trainer. I assure you that those different platforms do NOT provide an exact same experience even on the exact same trainer. The DESIGN of the ROUVY app running the same GPX file info will NOT feel exactly the same as doing it while controlled by a Garmin EDGE, for example. I assume that’s due to differences in how the ROUVY app manages your coasting speeds downhill, among other things. I just know it’s very different. And while ZWIFT is a different animal altogether, it is pretty commonly accepted that you will roll higher average speeds on ZWIFT than you will in real life rides, enough so that those speeds are rather unrealistic. I think SYSTM, for example, runs much truer to reality in the speed results, albeit, the elevation isn’t there, but a flat course result seems pretty true to my ability over the set workout timeframe. That’s just my anecdotal experience.)

Back to the SYSTM question, I repeat that IF SYSTM were to incorporate such an addition as VIRTUAL rides, including elevation accounted for, and the video running at the speed you actually perform via power output, this IS A DIFFERENT ANIMAL than the current SYSTM app.
But before you dismiss this altogether as aligning with SYSTM, remember that SYSTM DID THE SAME THING when they bought RGT. Yes, they kept RGT as a SEPARATE APP, and it was just an ADD-ON to your SYSTM membership.
That would be 100% FINE WITH ME. (AS LONG AS SYSTM (or X, :face_vomiting:) imported those different activities across the apps, sharing the same info on the calendar, history, etc.)

That’s really all that I was suggesting, and clearly there are others who would welcome this option. I personally find this option far more appealing than the video game world option that RGT was and ZWIFT IS.

Obviously some DON’T like this idea…

I’m in total agreement about exceptional videos etc, and I’ve clearly stated that this is what brought me BACK to SYSTM again. I’ve also said, as have others, that I LIKE VIRTUAL rides with ACTUAL VIDEO, (as opposed to computer graphic worlds, regardless if they are tied to real GPX data or not.)

But @titanicus I’m not sure at all why you seem to emphasize training platform as if this potential addition to SYSTM would somehow detract from training??
I AM a SYSTM subscriber, same as you, but I am NOT nearly as focused on TRAINING, at least from any specifically disciplined standpoint, whether for racing or targeted rides (century, multi-day events, etc.)
What I have suggested should in NO WAY REDUCE SYSTM or detract from what it already offers, nor would I want it to. I’m only suggesting a further development that I personally would use as A PART of my enjoyment of SYSTM, and I think others would also.

To be clear, I’m only suggesting the VIRTUAL world as an ADD-ON, not MOVING FROM the current Platform or eliminating it at all. It DOES NEED TO INCREASE with more true SYSTM produced workouts, absolutely! People want more w/o having to repeat the same ones as often (though I’m far from exhausting the options, personally.)

“increase in platform competition” This I don’t understand exactly… Do you mean competition within SYSTM?
“loss of uniqueness” Again, I’m missing how this would occur?? I fully agree that SYSTM should KEEP is already unique flavor! I love it! But, for example, when SYSTM added RGT, I rarely ever used it. A few rides on it at most! Why? I hated the computer graphic world. I didn’t like the gaming aspects.
But it in no way made me like SYSTM less, nor did I see it as anything to detract from my enjoyment of SYSTM. To each his own was my thinking. I have friends who only use ZWIFT. I don’t get it at all, but that doesn’t hurt me a bit.

On this, I partially disagree and partially agree. I don’t see this as ANY move against ZWIFT, unless it is for the small overlap of gaining elevation credits? That’s tiny, IMO.

But NOTHING about the VIRTUAL aspect I’ve suggested using ACTUAL VIDEO footage, REAL PLACES, REAL CLIMBING RESISTANCE, REAL GRADIENT CHANGES ON MY KICKR BIKE, these are not at all a part of the ZWIFT artificial, computer graphic, video game advantages world.

There IS a direct challenge to ROUVY, I admit, but I propose that SYSTM NEEDS to compete with ROUVY/FULGAZ at some point, and hopefully BEFORE ROUVY/FULGAZ improves its game enough to start competing with more engaging workouts, etc.
Had ROUVY already been adept in this area, I might have stuck with them, and would likely have tried to engage more friends to team up with me there. But they are NOT adept in engagement… YET.

I do TOTALLY AGREE with you, @titanicus that the investment in SYSTM’s core concept does seem to have slowed, or at least from my limited 3-year exposure to it, it isn’t producing as many new workouts/videos as many are asking for.
And you may be right on target that the financial backing isn’t there for ANY of what I suggested. No argument there, and no certainty as to what is the status.
It’s up to ownership to decide where they can spend money and when. All I’ve suggested has to reckon with the realities of time and funding.
Obviously it’s easy for me to say now, I think they would have been far better off trying the ROUVY/FULGAZ concept instead of the RGT short-lived attempt, which was a DIRECT challenge to ZWIFT’s model even when ZWIFT was DOMINATING that approach.
Right now, NOBODY is dominating the VIRTUAL approach, but ROUVY is gaining.

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Hmm, not quite. Wahoo bought RGT as a parallel app to SYSTM. Thus SYSTM + RGT = X. SYSTM itself did not have a virtual ride component.

Not detract from training per se but detract from the development of SYSTM’s established training platform by spreading their devs too thin (as I don’t see investment for a VR area happening without the additional personnel).

No, competition across platforms like Zwift and Rouvy. Any VR component to SYSTM (or X) would be in direct competition to those platforms, meaning it would have to have something different to draw people to it.

If SYSTM adds a VR element, it ceases to become unique because other platforms have a VR element plus the ability to do workouts.

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On my part we’d just have to agree to disagree. I don’t want what you describe @DouthatBiker. And I think @titanicus is right, why should they go into semi-VR, spending their dev on the unique product they have is much better.

Why do I need elevation? Or distance for that matter, I am only staying put on my trainer not moving an inch (hopefully). These are very unimportant parameters unless you desperately want to collect badges and elevation on Strava.

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Right, so what I said was SYSTM did the same thing… I.e they bought another app, adding a totally different model and keeping it as a separate app… that brought in the “virtual ride” as you say, but it was CG, which I personally do not consider VIRTUAL rides, and what I’ve proposed is only aimed toward VIRTUAL rides being REAL PLACES and REAL VIDEO.

AGREED! For sure!

Yeah, I still see a RADICAL difference between those 2 platforms. I see ROUVY as VIRTUAL, as described above, but ZWIFT… it’s just a video game for cyclists, IMO. It has almost no similarity to REALITY.

I guess under that narrow definition…
But ZWIFT ain’t REALITY…
And ROUVY ain’t too SWIFT… YET. :slight_smile:

SYSTM workouts already stand alone, head and shoulders above the rest.

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Problem is, they’re not spending enough that users are seeing progress or expansion. I’m not by any stretch the only one saying this. I said clearly I agree on where spending should be… but that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be planning for the future… whenever opportunity is there and funds are available.

If you knew me, you wouldn’t even wonder about these. I’ve mentioned them because they are realities for ALL cyclists who ride outdoors as well as in, and many have asked about these before. I do the “challenges” on Strava simply because they are there and they help me keep track of both distances and elevation gains.
Do they matter? You betcha they do. Every mile and every foot of elevation changes your speed, your physical output, etc.
Do I need to know? It’s not huge, just another detail of living. I don’t fret that SYSTM doesn’t include these with workouts. But if I AM going to ride the Alpe d’Huez, I like to see the profile, know the elevation gain, and use it as part of my motivation as I do it.
If I do it with Mike Cotty, as a workout, at his speeds but my own power output, No, I sure don’t expect to see some elevation chart of HIS progress. I’m fine taking a ZERO on that test.

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True, so focus the attention instead of diverting it.

They are literally not realities indoors.

Yep, outside they do.

But like I said, let’s agree to disagree as we care about different things.