Used FullGaz a bit during lockdown but would much rather ride outdoors or do a specific training effort.
@JamesJordan 10 years ago most of us were just staring at the wall when doing intervals. Whether you use Sufferfest, RGT, etc. you have options - pick the one that keeps you training and makes you better or mix it up to get some variety. Lots of different ways to get it done.
10 years from now the tech will be even more different. I think that is why Wahoo bought RGT. They want options as the landscape changes so that they stay relevant. Zwift continues to make inroads with workouts and was rumored to be buying Trainer Road but that didn’t pan out. Wahoo is likely trying to keep on top of what the customer wants - having a bit of everything for everyone to bring and keep more eyeballs to the platform.
I guess we will see how it all works out but for now I feel like there is a lot of value with the current offering and for the price you just can’t get the same deal anywhere else.
@JamesJordan Today I joined an event on RGT with two other Sufferlandrians. The drafting definitely allowed me to conserve some energy before hitting the segment and you can see that the Sufferlandrian behind me is getting an even greater benefit. Wish I could get closer to the KOM on Ramp to Ferry Road!
I would rather ride outdoors as well.
Sometimes the weather and my schedule do not allow a several hours long ride to be moved to another day. It is also good if I want to do a simple endurance ride. They are almost impossible to do outdoors where I live.
I think you are correct as to why Wahoo bought RGT. The future is going to be immersive virtual riding. Most people are not going to be interested in Sufferfest-style workouts.
Like said, it’s a gaming thing. Keeping in the draft in a real environment where you can touch wheels, road surface and the rest of the inputs is completely different.
No that would have made more sense than RGT. From what I understand the new adaptive training plans are surprisingly good. This would have made System have something different and sellable rather than being a poor clone of Zwift.
I think we are are likely to be seeing two different communities.
The immersive one that will always gravitate towards Zwift. It’s just too big and well known in the market for anyone to compete with unless they are going to sink serious levels of cash well beyond what Wahoo is for RGT
The one that wants training benefits. This is where the rest of System sits in terms of its offerings. This is currently a much smaller investment requirement and if done right would have given System the opportunity to set itself apart. Key to this would be an adaptive training and analysis tool. They would have been better buying Todays Plan or Training Peaks.
The question is can Wahoo survive just on the training community alone.
The other platforms (such as Rouvy) are offering training plans. I personally do not find them very compelling, but if the training community finds them adequate enough, then there will not be enough people for Wahoo to survive.
I do not know what their hardware revenues are, but they are certainly not like publicly traded Garmin which has many revenue streams. Zwift wants to get into the hardware business. That makes sense for multiple reasons, including racing integrity. Wahoo is clearly cutting costs.
@Heretic It is definitely a very niche market. Peloton has 6.5 million members, Zwift has around 1 million, Trainer Road has something in the range of 150k to 350k.
I don’t know Wahoo’s numbers but I suspect they are smaller than Zwift and probably similar in size to Trainer Road. But they also sell hardware and it seems like the Wahoo Sports Science facility may also either generate some money or at least pay for itself.
When the RGT acquisition was announced Chip Hawkins remarked that it was impressive what they had done on a shoestring budget and the plan was to add some features and increase advertising and they have definitely done that and frankly it is clear that they have attracted Zwift’s attention as many of the features Zwift has added recently seems to be a reaction to an RGT feature.
I keep coming back to the overall value. For the price point there just isn’t a similar offering that includes all of the features included in Wahoo SYSTM. Peloton comes the closest but they don’t have any training plans and I consider them to attract a more casual user anyway. In any case they cost $40 per month but they do charge by household. For any of the other offerings you are likely doubling up to get the same value.
Further Wahoo already has lots of contacts at the pro level and are an established brand in those circles. I guess we will see how things play out.
@JamesJordan I have read some of the adaptive training discussions in the TrainerRoad forum. It seems to be a bit lumpy times and some users are opting out and sticking with testing over adaptive training.
I think Wahoo does go this direction at some point when they can fully bake the model. I also think we will see some analytics as well but I don’t think it will be the fitness / freshness approach that others use and that I frankly find to be pretty useless.
@JamesJordan Sure - no doubt. But you are still pedaling and if you have the Wahoo Kickr Climb you are definitely feeling some changes up and down in the road. I am fairly certain that the algorithm also takes weight and maybe CdA into account as well.
Since I do not race, RGT is not useful for me, and Rouvy is a far better real-world simulation. Rouvy apparently has partnerships as well. You can ride partial stages of the Tour de France or La Vuelta.
For that matter, you can ride up the ascents of Mount Ventoux with the appropriate video.
@Heretic I race but haven’t done so online. I just do workouts and ride around in RGT - sort of a substitute for SYSTM and outdoor riding when the weather doesn’t cooperate. RGT also has Ventoux - it is the only one of the “Just Rides” that I haven’t tried yet. I really like the other ones. I suspect it will need to be a day in the offseason when I am looking to crank out some significant watts.
Yes, but when you ride it, you do not see what you would see when you would ride up Ventoux.
In addition, they have many, many more rides than SYSTM. I can also ride my own routes.
I think the RGT Ventoux route uses a different approach than the more common one (which is what Zwift uses):
Slightly going off the thread here a bit but…
TrainerRoad is nowhere near as adaptive or smart as people want, they’re working on it (and have been for what seems like years at this point) but people are getting tired of it because for a lot of people it doesn’t fit their lifestyle which is driving them to other solutions. Specifically, if you do your workouts outside no analysis is done or if you do workouts which aren’t prescribed by TR, then they don’t really exist to TR for training.
IMO for a period of time TrainerRoad had it good because there were few options and they pushed marketing, but these days there are many options out there to attract people and many are much more adaptive and smart, and fit the lifestyle of the average person. To be quite honest SYSTM is in a similar boat since it comes from that era, a more rigid training plan.
The service I use (JOIN) is much simpler: it lets me specify availability, takes into account my feedback/how I did on ANY activity (planned or unplanned, even strength and running), adapts/adjusts the plan instantly, and doesn’t consider their structured workouts secret - you can have them emailed to you as a file or push to different platforms including TrainingPeaks free (which is how I get mine to RGT and my ROAM 2). A lot of this is what TrainerRoad users want but do not have despite being told repeatedly it’s coming, and thus as I stated with new options on the block are looking elsewhere.
Can the adaptive solutions and rigid solutions co-exist? Yes, I’m not sure for how long but some people love rigid plans and being able to see over the entire length of the plan what’s going to happen. Adaptive can’t do this because it is, well, adaptive to what actually happens and thus generally only gives a short glimpse.
Any model would require both adaptive learning as well as testing.
Agree fitness/freshness would only work in that it could tell if you were struggling to meet targets but also take on when you exceeded and how you achieved them. While people rave on about AI I don’t think it’s there yet to really do this sort of interaction beyond the simple.
Never heard of this one.
Any chance of a link.
I feel weird giving it here but did mention it, https://join.cc/ it’s a mobile app. It does have direct integration with Wahoo though for pulling your completed activities in which is nice. If you have further questions you can private message if you want, such as if you want to see screenshots.