Where's my 4DP profile?

[toddsdonald]

So, after restarting my training with SYSTM I’m finding the workouts too tough, way tougher than they were in Sufferfest. A couple I’ve quit midway through, a couple others (like today doing one of the on location rides), I’ve stopped once or twice to get my heart rate down so I could finish.

My 4DP settings I’m assuming carried over, but it doesn’t seem like it’s the same or like the effort doesn’t match the actual effort if you know whatI mean… The effort read out will show 6/10, but I’m nearly at 90% of my FTP and well beyond my LTR.

I wanted to double check my 4DP profile to make sure it’s still there and I can’t find it anymore… Anyone know how to see it, or do I need to do the full frontal again?

Thanks

[JSampson]

@toddsdonald In the Library select by channel and fitness test. Here is what it looks like on IPad.

[tunatornado]

Click on your picture in the app and then Athlete Profile to find your 4DP settings

[Sir_SimonF]

Click on profile and you can see the numbers in Athletes Profile

[leebo]

To see your current 4DP settings, click on the first icon on the left hand side (a red circle in my case, you may have set up your own icon):

and select “My Profile”. On the main page then choose the “Athlete Profile” tab.

As I understand it your profile should have been copied over from the old app.

Do shout if you can’t see it.

[toddsdonald]

Thanks everyone. Today my 4DP is showing up in my profile, yesterday there wasn’t anything there.

As for the old Sufferfest app, I uninstalled it after installing the new SYSTM

Shouldn’t SYSTM control the trainer so that we’re not going beyond targets? It seems like if it can increase/decrease resistance for a target power level, it should be able to lower resistance if you’re breaking out of the target effort or heart rate.

Thx

[DameLisa]

The target is power, not HR. I’d ignore the HR target entirely. Typically I go over on HR at the start on a plan with fresh numbers and am well under by the end of the plan. HR can be a target for long steady endurance intervals, not for short snappy FTP, MAP, AC and NM intervals. The whole point to some extent is to stress your cardio so you get fitter and more efficient as a rider.
Power is also more of an accurate measure
HR drifts and also lags, so is way less useful as a target for intervals work. When you go into recovery, it takes a while for HR to drop. Likewise it takes a while for it to lift again when you go into an interval. When they are something like 1min on off intervals, my HR is almost the inverse of my power because of lag.

How recent are your 4DP numbers? I’d go test again and get fresh ones. If you’ve not been on a regular plan for a wee while, they may have dropped.

[toddsdonald]

Hi DameLisa,

I totally understand and agree that power is perhaps a better target than anything else. There are still benefits to utilize the other zones for training as I’m sure you’re aware.

Since Sufferfest didn’t have very useable outdoor training, I was just using it for yoga and strength through the nice weather. My outdoor riding was improved from the Sufferfest training and I broke PRs without any problem and training peaks would keep emailing me telling me to raise my power and heart rate profiles based on the rides outside.

But back indoors now and I’m dying. The problem is that Target power can’t be met without going beyond appropriate zones, (which are also crucial for training). So, if target power is say 165 watts, but a rider can’t maintain it without breaking out of the correct heart rate and effort, or can’t sustain cadence, etc then it pretty much ruins the planned effectiveness of that training session, (because all training sessions are built around those key parameters), and likely any that follow it within the coming days.

If the software monitored all aspects and adjusted power level up or down accordingly to keep all the parameters within their intended ranges then the training session would be successful and the next day’s training wouldn’t be at risk.

I think that if the power is within 25 to 50 watts plus or minus, but duration, heart rate, effort and cadence are obtainable and sustainable for the intended intensity it would be awesome.

Thanks for the response as always. Given the current limitations of the software I’ll need to consider my own limitations and retake the 4DP for current state of fitness, the new software, etc. Over training is probably worse than under training. In this case, if I’m in HR zone 5 instead of 3 to maintain FTP target, it’s overtraining.

[AkaPete]

Building on @DameLisa comments, if you can’t maintain the power during a workout, lower the intensity. If you’re not sure how to do that, ask. It’s easy to do during a workout.

As to heart rate zones, I’d just offer an opinion that the reason heart rate training became a thing was because once upon a time, heart rate was the only objective measure of effort available. For some kinds of exercise (e.g. running, new “power” meters notwithstanding), that’s still largely true for most athletes. But while it was the only measure for a long time, that didn’t mean it was a good measure. Dame Lisa already pointed out that heart rate drifts and lags. It is also different everyday, and highly sensitive to heat and hydration. If we had had better measures of effort, we probably wouldn’t have focused so much on heart rate. (Note: a lot of running training is more steady state than cycling training which makes heart rate a less problematic measure, if still imperfect, than it is in cycling.)

For cyclists, especially those with smart trainers or power meters, we have a far better way to measure effort: instaneous power. That’s why almost all modern cycling training focuses on power targets, not on heart rate targets. It doesn’t lag, it doesn’t drift, it isn’t sensitive to hydration or heat, and it’s relationship to effort doesn’t change from day to day and moment to moment.

Of course, power targets are imperfect because human physiology is complicated. On any given day, a cyclist might be more or less able to generate power over whatever timeframe is being trained. The only way to know that is to keep track of how you feel. If you feel unusually lousy (i.e. suffering in a bad way or feeling like your heart is exploding out of your chest or that you’re about to pass out–that is, before the last interval), lower the intensity. Or if it’s really bad, take a rest day. Of course, because most SYSTM workouts set targets below maximum effort, you will usually find that with appropriate (good) suffering, you can get through the workouts.

[toddsdonald]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Yes if there’s a way to lower the resistance during a workout that’s awesome, how is it done?

Regarding the heart rate and effort aren’t they usually tied together in professional training plans?

For example:
X sets of % ftp power and % ltr (HR) and cadence and effort #/10.

If a certain power # is all that one targeted, it would negate many other facets of the benefits of controlled indoor training.

Outside with a group or even solo you could technically try to maintain a power range, (like in crit racing it’s very helpful so you don’t blow up), but you’ve still got to monitor and try to control heart rate because that’s an integral piece of your power output. Too high for too long and power drops. All sorts of things can alter heart rate but it’s still tethered to your power output. Then to tie that in with mph of course you factor in your gearing your tires your position, whether you’re drafting or not etc. The human body is a terribly weak propulsion system, but if you can work within your personal parameters it all works out. Too much of any one thing can alter the outcome. Outdoors however, there’s opportunities for relief and resistance… Headwinds hills, wind to your back, downhill, drafting, etc. and power varies with giant swings, from 50 watts to 1000 watts possible over the course of a mile depending on terrain, conditions and demand.

That’s the beauty of indoor training is that it’s controlled so over the course of weeks or months you can build and alternate to improve your outdoor riding or racing.

For example, if my FTP is 195’ish and my LTR is 163 BPM, that’s pretty much a constant. If it’s hot, or I’ve had a short warmup or there’s hills or pace changes and I’m trying to maintain 300 watts, or 180 bpm, it’s not going to last long. Sooner or later heart rate and power have to equalize to maintain propulsion. On an endurance ride that’s planned for several hours, it’s critical to keep your heart rate in a particular zone with less emphasis on power output.

With good training one can increase physical fitness and improve incrementally, so that you’re making more power at the same heart rate or raising your heart rate to make more power, or increasing both.

Perceived effort is essentially one’s instantaneous assessment of how they feel… Which is a mental gauge for FTP and LTR combined.

I’m not a physiologist or trainer, but I’ve been cycling quite a long time and that’s pretty much how it feels and I’ve read plenty of books that seem to validate that approach. Whether I’ve got sensors and meters or if I’m riding without any gadgets, it’s still important to keep tabs on either the stats on the head unit or the feeling in your head.

It would be totally impractical to set off on a 150 mile ride trying to target anything other than a zone 2 or 3 heart rate and likewise it would be unwise to race a 45 minute crit without being warmed up fully and targeting the highest % of LTR and FTP you can maintain for that duration. It’s duration and intensity that dictate keeping FTP and LTR in check.

At least that’s how I experience it and understand it… But I’ve been wrong before so perhaps this is just hog wash.

[AkaPete]

@toddsdonald

if there’s a way to lower the resistance during a workout that’s awesome, how is it done?

Click the gear icon on the top right of the screen.

Click Settings then click the +/- buttons to make the targets harder or easier. Even small percent changes can make a big difference.

Here’s what it looks like with a 5% reduction. You’ll notice (if you look closely) that the targets on the chart changed!

If you use a computer and keyboard, there’s a keyboard shortcut: just press the up and down arrows to change the percentages. I use an iPad, so I have to follow the steps above.

[AkaPete]

@toddsdonald

If a certain power # is all that one targeted, it would negate many other facets of the benefits of controlled indoor training.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean. The SYSTM workouts target power numbers based on your 4DP results: they aren’t just invented. They are designed to improve your abilities starting from where you are.

You’ll notice that there are cadence targets too. Those provide secondary benefits by changing the mix of muscle strength vs cardio strength being used to achieve a power target. I’ve found that learning to use different cadences to achieve a power target has helped me change cadence more frequently when I’m outside and increased my comfort and endurance.

Heart rate is so laggy and so sensitive to other things, that it really can’t be used to “automatically” adjust power targets–although SYSTM will show you “target” zones, they are just there for your information. For example, for shorter intervals, your heart rate probably won’t finish climbing until after you’re done! And for long, sustained efforts, your heart rate can take several minutes (or longer) to move up into its “zone”. You obviously don’t want to increase effort while your heart rate is still catching up. And for truly long efforts, a phenonemon called heart rate drift will cause your heart rate to steadily rise throughout the effort and possibly move up and out of the “zone”. What I’ve read says that drift isn’t related to either fatigue or effort, so you wouldn’t want that to automatically adjust the power targets either. This article (focussed on running) discusses some of these ideas.

All that said, if your heart rate is really out of whack and you feel like you’re working too hard, cut back. Keep in mind, though, that if you are near FTP effort (90% to 105% is considered Threshhold level), it will feel hard. On the RPE scale, it’s 6.5 to 8.0.

[DameLisa]

@toddsdonald given that you are back riding 4DP training plans after a few months away from SYSTM/Sufferfest, I suspect your previous 4DP numbers are out of date.

Did you re do FF when you started back up with SYSTM? Maybe do just a Half Monty ride rather than Full Frontal. That will confirm if there’s
a slight drop in your previously tested FTP/MAP and LTHR alone. Worth doing and avoids the of FF while you’re getting back into things. If your numbers are down, you can use the more recent FTP/MAP from HF and manually adjust the AC/NM as well. Then do FF in a few weeks.

Just another thought, I don’t know how long or hard you were training off your previous 4DP profile. Maybe your rider type and weakness has changed? I am absolutely guilty of not redoing FF frequently enough and am currently riding off a 3 year old 4DP profile, knowing my FTP target is about right but my others are not. I need to bite the bullet and test.

[toddsdonald]

Hi DameLisa, You’re probably right that my 4DP changed after cycling outside and then being off for a month when Sufferfest rebranded mid training. I’ll change my workout plan from all around road to 4dp prep and do a full frontal again. I will say that yesterday the ride/ workout was better after my 4DP profile reappeared in the software. Not sure if that’s a coincidence or not, but I’ll redo my 4dp.

[toddsdonald]

Hi akaPete,

It’s my understanding that the targets on the dashboard are not merely for information and can be ignored in lieu of chasing the power target. For training purposes and to get the most benefit from the program, I believe they’re intended to be followed and met across the board. In other words, heart rate zone, power, cadence and effort are all supposed to be met within their parameters simultaneously.

In other words, if it shows you’re supposed to be in z3-4 at 150 watts, 90 rpm and 7/10 effort, you should be trying to meeting all those parameters simultaneously for the benefit of that session.

That’s the way professional training plans are setup for duration and intensity. Then you’ll have active recovery and alternating training to make the most of the time and miles throughout the training plan.

Just focusing on power isn’t correct.

[JSampson]

@toddsdonald In general focusing on power works best.

For any workout that is specific to cadence - eg. Cadence Builds or Standing Starts or for any low torque workouts - eg. G.O.A.T., Power Station and a few of the new videos - you will want to focus more on cadence.

For everything else focus on power 1st and cadence second.

Heart rate won’t really tell you much until after the workout but do keep an eye on your Rate of Perceived Exertion “RPE” as a gut check against your planned workout.

[DameLisa]

@JSampson

In general focusing on power works best

I concur with this.
Power is the most Important. HR is useless for intervals.
If you have a smart trainer. All you have to worry about is cadence. The trainer will deal with power. HR can be ignored. It’s essentially an indicator of how tired you are, how well you recover etc. But it’s not a target. If you ride without power, then you ride to RPE as a target, not HR.

[TTDragon]

I completely agree about worrying about power but, after listening to The Knowledge podcasts, I’d also keep an eye on RPE and HR so you know what’s normal for you (I’d be less worried about whether or not your HR is in the zone the app indicates).

[PedalMonkey]

I agree, but training with power is reliant on having your FTP/Zones set correctly, it seems to me that the OP hasn’t done this, and is now trying to find away for the system to adapt to incorrectly set parameters, as a none racer I struggle with the motivation to get through a FTP test and push myself to the limit, but I have to accept that if I don’t, and my FTP is set to high, my heart rate is going to be to high for the specified zone

[DameLisa]

Yup exactly. The alternative is to do a Half Monty, get the FTP back up then revert to original FF numbers if you can’t face doing another FF. I have enough FF results now that I pick historic ones based on my HM numbers. Not ideal but works for me