FF 4DP Tactics?

Anyone tested the +100% technique to mentally beat your last test? I haven’t tried this yet but believe it will work.


Good Luck, stay Strong.

Since the point of FF is to give you accurate numbers to base your training on, I don’t think this is a good idea. Say for example, your MAP went up 4% and FTP went up 2% you would finish the test with a 2% increase across the board (assuming you could finish the test, which might not be possible if one of your metrics didn’t increase). The best approach is to do the test as it’s supposed to be done because the protocol has been validated. Again, the goal is to get numbers that guide training rather than getting numbers that hit some arbitrary goal.


For the purposes of training, I totally agree. For me, what works the best is to do the 7 day test prep plan which includes a HM on day three which sets targets for the FF on day 7. When doing the FF, I try to just beat those targets, and it’s killer. I believe this produces more consistent and reliable results to base subsequent training on, and to gauge the results.

That said, nothing wrong with otherwise doing the tests and trying things to see what happens, though it’s probably best not to use those results to base training on.


Are you just changing the values and riding on level mode still,this sounds like a sound tactic. Or trying to ride it in Erg mode with the higher figures?

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Yes I have done it, yes it works. If you feel like you can do more, do more. If you feel yourself starting to drop off that target helps keep you on track. The few times I’ve done it this way I went to 110%. The last time I did it I hit right on for the map and just slightly below for the ftp. The last time doing this being just yesterday.


Riding the Wattbike PRO and it’s more or less very dumb. I set the resistance and fine tune it via the cadence.

Yep! I’ve done that a couple times, usually set to 105%. It definitely helped having a number to aim for consistently on the longer segments. Definitely saw good results on FTP and MAP – I didn’t pay attention to it for AC/NM because then I’m just wringing out whatever I can.

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Do it all the time. I’m in camp @Saddlesaur on this one. Works for me, gives me a target for pacing, and has produced steady gains over time.

Yeah, as much as I’m an advocate on this technique, I also only do it for MAP/FTP. I level and hammer for NM/AC - the one time I tried to set a 110% on AC it nearly ground me down to nothing 20sec in…

What @JGreengrass asked? Are you just changing the values and riding on level mode still. Is that they way?

OP says he has a Wattbike Pro, its a fancy stationary bike with a power meter, level mode is the only option.

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I am more intrigued to hear what the compliancy and completion rate is of workouts post doing their 4DP test like this.
How often or not a workout had to be reduced (or increased), how many workouts were ‘failed’ as in not being done 100% as provided in the workout player, what training plan they were on using their numbers obtained in this manner, how many weekly hours spent on doing (indoor and/or outdoor) workouts (not including outside rides with mates), etc.
How sustainable was the training effect post acquiring numbers in this fashion.


To be clear, Full Frontal is still in level mode, not ERG – it’s merely a mental game/target. So anything someone can produce with this method is ‘real’ and should be reproduceable if the athlete can keep focused. I have found the results fully sustainable in subsequent training.

I turn down intensity of my rides below 100% very rarely (maybe 1 in 30 workouts?), and it’s pretty much always toward the end of longer rides due to factors like extended fatigue, menstrual cycle, etc. I haven’t turned intensity up in a looong time, though I have done it in the past when workouts were getting ‘easier’ but I didn’t manage to schedule in a new test.

I probably give myself extra rest during a ride more frequently than some people, maybe once every week or two. (E.g. 30-45 seconds extra recovery after a lot of tough intervals, or during a long interval, like 30 minutes at FTP). This is usually down to mental focus, not physical demands; sometimes I can fight through and keep the power up surprising myself.

As for training plans, it’s always been a variety for me leading up to a 4DP test – I don’t usually do plans to attain a specific goal (“increase metric X by Y%”), rather to give my training structure and improve skills in different directions.

In the last 3 months I have quit early on a ride 3 times

  • Violator after 15 minutes because my gearing was f*cked and I couldn’t shift properly,
  • The Shovel after 30 minutes – this was right after trying to do Violator. By then I was frustrated, tired, and in a rotten mood.
  • MAP 2 sets 8x1 – it was 3-hour ride I cut to 2:20 because I was too bored doing the extra volume, and i did bail on the last three 1-minute MAP efforts (out of 16) because my legs were empty, likely due to poor fuelling.

Looking back on the last 3 months, I’ve done about 4-7 hours of SYSTM cycling training per week, and nothing outside except commutes. On top of that, 2+ hours per week of combined yoga, strength, mobility, and mental training.


To echo @rinaf, the test is done in level mode so it’s not as if erg is over inflating the result. It should have the same completion as any other test with new numbers. For instance, if my ftp is 200, I can’t set the target to 260 and expect to have a successful test as I won’t be able to maintain the 260. However if I’m at 200 and I bump it to say 216 after a training block, that’s probably an attainable number plus or minus a few watts.

I haven’t had many times where I had to adjust up/down after an FTP test. The main time I had to adjust was when I decided I didn’t want to do the test and I can figure it out on my own and it didn’t go so well.

I can think of only a handful of rides I didn’t complete at 100%, one due to a medical emergency in the family where I had to bail and the other couple because I wasn’t feeling good and tried to press on anyway and stopped because I felt like I was doing more damage in the long run.

As for training plans, whatever general cycling plan that puts me at around 5-7 hours a week on the bike indoors. I only use Systm in the winter, once it starts to get nice out I go back outside.


You can see the screen during FF?! You’re doing it all wrong my friend :joy:


I’ve talked about it in other threads, but I’m a data guy - I don’t like guessing, I liked quantifiable metrics. That’s what motivates me.

Here’s my methodology for FF - like @Saddlesaur, I do the HM/FF prep plan for test week, and borrowed from their idea. I use the HM data to baseline new potential #‘s for MAP and FTP. Come FF test day, I do level mode for NM, then jump to ERG mode for MAP and FTP, following the coaches’ pacing strategy - I will start at whatever # I obtained from HM, then at the halfway mark I’ll dial it up 5, 10, or 15%, depending how I feel (could adjust down too, I guess, but haven’t had to do that to date). Then I finish out back in level mode for AC.

I find having those HM MAP/FTP numbers dialed in for ERG mode on FF helps me pace and keeps me motivated toward finishing the segment. I tell myself that I KNOW I can meet that baseline #, because I did it in HM. Then if I get halfway and god-forbid feel like I have more in the tank, I bump it up a bit to finish.

I just completed FF yesterday, and went +41 on NM, +23 on AC, +14 on MAP, and +17 on FTP - recognizing that those MAP/FTP were increases over what I did on HM just this past week. I basically end up doing FF twice per year, and have made steady gains on every test to date. And for the first time my rider type changed from Sprinter to Attacker, so that’s something new to look at.

In my experience, the first few weeks after fresh FF numbers are brutal. My “fail rate” would probably be higher than I’d like for those early hard workouts, but typically I don’t dial down workouts. I will more often pause the workout for a few seconds to bring my HR down within range and then continue. Maybe this season I’ll try to dial down instead, see what difference that makes. That’s just me - I’d rather get the full workout time in the saddle at a reduced rate or with a break than “fail” it.

As for the rest, pretty much all my training last year was metric century and then century plan, with some MAP/FTP blocks to address my persistent VO2 weakness (per SUFF), and to prep for the century, double century, and KoS that I checked the blocks on this year. Assuming that’s why my rider type changes, as my AC improved quite a bit compared to my other metrics this year.

I typically did high volume training, 10-14 hours per week including daily indoor rides and at least one 2.5 hour+ ride on the weekends, plus yoga and strength sessions. I’m excited for this indoor season, as with the new(ish) gravel bike I’m doing the high-volume CX plan for the first time this winter, so will get some running added in and weird CX-drill sessions. In the next two weeks I’m kicking off with The Cure, Half is Easy, and all of the UCI sessions…on fresh numbers. So yeah, ask me around Christmas time how the new plan is going…

:sob: :sob: :sob:

(apologies for the length).


IKR? I have fewer memories of FF than any other SUFF video, and I literally just did it yesterday!


I feel like I did it right?

:joy: :rofl: :joy:


Think that was a joke!

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That’s some epic suffering right there!

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