Who here calls themselves a Wahooligan? Sufferlandrian?

I like DCR, but if you think about this for more than a moment you’d realise it’s utter nonsense.
Your rear wheel never drops away from underneath you, or raises up behind you (unless you’re off-road and doing jumps wrong).
As you hit a climb your front wheel reaches it first and the axis of the bike pivots because the front wheel goes up, the rear never goes down. When you crest a climb then the rear wheel slowly levels out and then drops away in front of you, but the rear doesn’t rise, it maintains it’s height as the front moves below it.
The Climb system replicates reality, which is that the bike is led by the front wheel, the Bike is less real in it’s implementation.
It’s super tiny, it’s barely there, but you can just about feel it and the Climb feels more like what happens on a bike.
But… The bike is SO MUCH SMOOTHER in terms of it’s actual movement and utterly silent too, so it’s give an take.
The Climb feels very fractionally more real in terms of implementation, the Bike is definitely better in terms of the adjustment mechanically.


@emacdoug not that I want to say this too loudly in a Wahoo forum where the support minions may be listening, but I have my Kickr Bike on a full motion rocker plate I made for myself, it has both fore-aft and side to side movement, so yes I definitely appreciate that over a static system but the benefit, again, of making it myself is that I’ve been able to tune it so it feels just right for my bodyweight and outdoor experience (along with the bike weight compensated, obviously).
Motion on the bike is definitely a good thing.

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Seems like the evidence would say there aren’t support minions listening here any more. Sadly.

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So, call me spatially challenged (sorta true) but in my mind (as I’ve never actually been on the Kickr Bike) I only see this if the road itself isn’t flat or straight. On a climb, at least on road climbs), the road is basically flat so the line that represents the points between both wheels axis should be the same gradient as the road it’s on with the rear wheel being slightly lower than the front wheel.

I’d love to have the opportunity to test these side by side, Sir, so, next time I’m in the neighbourhood…

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This is one of those things that is easiest to represent in a well made animation rather than in text, but the reality is as such:

When fed, say a 10 degree gradient, both the Kickr bike and a normal bike on a Kickr+climb will end up with an angle between the two wheel axles of 10 degrees. In both instances the bike (assuming you have your Kickr Climb configured properly) will ultimately be at the same angle.

The Climb unit achieves this by lifting the front wheel (or lowering it if negative gradient)
The Bike achieves this by pivoting the bike around it’s axis.

In the real world the bike doesn’t pivot about it’s axis, because the axis is not a fixed point in space, the front wheel hits a change in elevation while the rear wheel is still at it’s previous elevation. The rear wheel doesn’t rise or drop, the front wheel does and as such adjusts the bike’s angle.
When you hit a climb in the real world the rear wheel never drops away below you, the front wheel lifts in front of you.
In practice either approach is really almost the same thing, but I would swear you can perceive that the bike is doing something that doesn’t happen in reality while the Climb is doing what does happen.

Imagine, if you will, that you’re cycling on the flat at a perfect 0’ elevation above sea level, you suddenly hit a hill and your front wheel is lifted to 1’ above sea level while your rear wheel is still not on the climb, we’ve hit a convenient 30 degree immediate gradient!
The bike is now at a significant angle, the front wheel has definitely moved up, but has the rear wheel moved down?
No. The rear wheel is vertically exactly where it was.

If you floated a bike in space then the rotational axis is in one location, yes, but that’s not how it actually works in practice because the rotational axis doesn’t remain fixed in space. In my example, the front wheel has risen, the center of rotation has risen, the rear wheel hasn’t moved (vertically) and that is exactly what Climb does.

To view the axis of the bike as the center of rotation is an easy mistake, but it’s not what happens in the real world.

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I’ll wait for the animation :stuck_out_tongue:

Edit: I should say that your explanation makes perfect sense. I’d still like to check it out for myself so, maybe throw a coupla beers in the fridge, I’m on my way.

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Ha, you might be holding your breath as long as emacdoug!

For DCR to be correct, then the axis of the bike needs to be a fixed (vertical) point in space, which means the bike never actually goes up or down, it just rotates while maintaining it’s vertical elevation (and going through mountains), the axis of rotation for the bike is actually the rear axle, exactly as it is with a Kickr+climb, because the front wheel initially changes elevation, the center of the bike “axis” changes approximately half that much while the rear wheel doesn’t change (perceptibly in an infinitely small period of time)

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Not to sidetrack this excellent sidetrack even further (from the Who calls themselves a Wah or Suff?) but I’m all in for the KICKR BIKE vs the CLIMB for different reasons.
I specifically wanted an INDOOR BIKE that did NOT require me to use the frame, wheels, tires, chains, cranks, etc that I ride outside. I simply don’t want all that mess inside, and I ABSOLUTELY don’t want to have to fiddle with putting it in or out of a trainer, and I don’t want the expense of buying another bike AND trainer to pair them up for indoor rides.

So that KEPT ME FROM even trying any apps like SYSTM or that crap Z app (just my opinion) for as long as it took for me to finally decide I could benefit from SOME indoor training (and could stand being cooped, since I would mainly do it when outside wasn’t so doable or desirable.)

Thus the KICKR BIKE, V1, plus SYSTM became reality for me in January of 2022.
Never regretted the purchase yet. Never regretted that some free subscription to SYSTM also came with it.
Glad I didn’t have to put my expensive bike into a trainer frame and subject it to the stresses that it was not designed to face. Glad I’ve had the freedom to switch to doing indoor or outdoor rides on any given day without having to change the bike from one to the other. All good things, at least for me.

ONE OTHER VERY NICE BENEFIT of a KICKR BIKE that became a really helpful thing to me is the OPPORTUNITY TO TRY DIFFERENT LENGTH CRANKS FOR FREE!
Yes, I made the change to the 165mm length about 6 months ago on my KICKR BIKE to see what I learned compared to the 172.5mm Stages Shimano Ultegra crankset on my DOMANE SLR frame.
I continue to ride both sizes, 165 indoor, 172.5 outdoor, and have very clearly noticed that I am always more comfortable on the KICKR Bike than I am on the DOMANE.
In fact, it was only this option that let me become firmly convinced that for me, 165mm is the max I will ever buy again, at least for a road OR gravel bike. (The ignorant and SLOW bike industry is STILL stupidly set on pushing cranks that are TOO LONG for riders, so you find that shorter cranks are only BEGINNING to be spec’d or offered on some road frames but on gravel frames, they still pretty much stop at 170mm for the short end. It’s quite ludicrous, frankly.)
So I’ve been testing the waters using the KICKR BIKE, and I clearly benefit from having a less closed hip angle. At the very least, in comfort, but also possibly in endurance and maybe even in power, though that’s less convincing.

There is a LOT to be said for a 5-position crankarm on an indoor bike to let you experiment and try things out without having to beg, borrow, or buy (or steal?) different sized cranks.
I only wish it went even further, and let me try 160mm because that is very likely where I will land when I finally decide what power meter crankset (or groupset) to put on my DOMANE, (which finally on today’s 100-mile ride decided to stop shifting down to the small ring when I was out about 40 miles from home… Grr… But I figured out how to manually push the little metal part back into place under the shifter lever to reset it so it would then make the shift. Had to do that over and over every time I rotated from big to little ring on a very hilly course. It made it very clear that I AM going to have to make this groupset change or only shifters and crankset change very soon!
I’m afraid I’m going to fall into the electronic shifting world, whether I like it or not… But I’m still in a heated internal debate about that choice. I do NOT like any of the options well enough yet to go “all-in” without reservations. :man_shrugging:

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6% of voters are the Company’s employees. Change my mind :beer_mug:

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Have you looked on the Garmin forums (maker of Tacx trainers)? They never say anything on there!

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I have ordered a new Tacx trainer from my LBS even though they are a Wahoo shop. I told them exactly why I did not want a Wahoo trainer.

I wasn’t questioning your choice of a Tacx trainer. They’re good, no question about that. I was questioning the fact that you’re choosing them over Wahoo because of the lack of Wahoo’s engagement with customers. I was pointing out that Garmin/Tacx is the same, if not worse in that regard.

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It is one thing to never set an expectation of support.

It is another thing to not live up to a past expectation level and destroy an excellent product.

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With respect, I think you’re holding Wahoo to a higher standard than Garmin.

As per DC Rainmaker:

March 2025… enter Garmin Connect+ (e.g. $6.99USD/month paid subscription to probably all new features of Garmin Connect going forward).

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So what? I barely use Garmin Connect and still have access to all my data there, and I have no interest in Connect+. I do not understand your argument.

On the other hand, I do not like the destruction of Sufferlandria, the lack of explanation, and the disappearance of company interaction in the forum.

Garmin has not taken anything away from me that I did not have before.

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Sorry… I don’t mean to be arguing with you and I’m not defending Wahoo per se. I’m just pointing out that the rationale you’ve used for selecting a Tacx trainer vs. a Wahoo trainer, might lead to disappointment as:

  1. Garmin do not engage with their users in their forums about changes to, or plans for, their products.
  2. Connect+ is an example of a service where the free stuff will become more and more abandoned favouring paid functionality, thus “taking away from you” something you did have before.

No point going in circles, so I’ll leave it at that.

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YET.
If Garmin does NOT DROP currently accessible features from the Garmin Connect app, I’ll be totally content with what my EDGE 840, FENIX 7, HRM-PRO, (and assorted other sensors) as well as my wife’s FENIX 6 provide us.
I also could not care less about Connect+ features at this point, and I would NEVER pay a monthly fee for ANY additional info, especially considering how expensive these devices are to begin with.

But I do have a definite concern that Garmin may start reducing information they currently provide for free via the Garmin Connect app, and which was a clear reason that I paid for these devices in the first place.
I have to agree with Sir simon that Garmin is frankly TERRIBLE about communicating with their customers. I have had to be the one to dig and search and eventually CALL and then sometimes wait for answers about things that appalled me that Garmin didn’t bother to explain in the obvious places they SHOULD HAVE explained (i.e. manuals.)

And Garmin changes features and menus without so much as an explanation or a choice.
Garmin Connect menus have at times been an adventure not unlike a visit to Walmart after they rearranged the aisles yet again, (just so you would have to search and search and wander about, while they hope you’ll run across something else you just must have.)

I like my Garmin products in SPITE of their failures. But I can’t say I think they are even a smidgeon better than Wahoo in terms of 2-way communication.

I don’t know what the current Tacx trainer is like, and I hope yours turns out to be a good choice for you!

Having said that, I remember when I was choosing an indoor bike, I looked at Garmin’s option and thought to myself, “There’s NO WAY I want a bike that simulates gravel/cobbles surfaces. The last thing I want is something that makes the ride less comfortable!”
The only reason I ride gravel roads, honestly, is because they are less trafficked and often provide more beautiful, remote scenes and wildlife. That makes the extra work worthwhile, but if I had a choice, they would be as smooth as pavement while still basically untrafficked!

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ICYMI, please see the post below where The Company is actually seeking our input.

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