Why have workouts been made easier in the new Systm app?

I have just done a side by side comparison of blender in the old Sufferfest app and the new Systm app. I compared Blender and A Very Dark Place. Despite my 4DP settings being the same in each the power targets are lower in the workouts when loaded through System and the IF for the workouts have dropped (Blender from 0.88 to 0.86 and AVDP from 0.96 to 0.9). The reason I like the Sufferfest is because it makes me train hard, it gets every last drop out of me, I disapointed that this seems to be changing.


You can always bump the IF up for the video.

Sir James - you’ll have to set all of your workouts to 110% :wink:


I can but previously what I loved was that Sufferfest knew exactly where my limits were and took me there. I won’t be able to remember the amount by which each workout has been turned down.

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I believe it was about 10% overall for the mongrel hordes of couchlandrians. Try 10% and see it that works.


Correction, A Very Dark Place, is now down to 0.87 IF, from 0.96 IF, that’s a big drop, not really the same workout. Should it’s name now be, A Slightly Shaded Place?] I get that the app needs to appeal to a wider audience but why not leave the hard workouts as they were and bring additional more manageable workouts.


Need to keep track of which workouts have and haven’t been. 14 vise grips appears to be the same.

There have been a few workout tweaks I believe. But not massive changes.

What has changed is that now the IF/TSS values shown in the library are based on your personal workout settings. Whereas the Suf app used the standard model for the library.

So form e for example, as an Attacker I would often get a final TSS value much higher than what was shown beforehand in the library. But now if I hit targets they match. If someone has a sustained strength they would have previously seen the opposite with lower TSS than shown in the library beforehand. Like I say, there have been a couple of workout tweaks, but across the board it may “look” like things have changed, but that’s really just because they’re calculating the values ahead of time for you personally.

Hope that makes sense?! :-/


That makes sense and explains the IF chnanes, however the power targets have also dropped. I have looked at the same interval in the same workout on both the old a new app, and the numbers are lower. The workout is easier in the new app.

Yeah as mentioned there are a couple of workouts that have been changed. Just mentioned the calc change as I think it may make it look more widespread and also potentially with the ones that did change it may make it look like the change was bigger than it actually has been.

And you can always whack that Up arrow, GvA won’t stop you :rofl:


Interested to know why they have been changed. I thought the point of them was to take you to your limit.

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Thanks. Ok, I mean they were all bloody hard. I thought Blender was always bang on though, tough but doable, always felt like I had put in a really good session after it. It is my favourite so a bit disapointed to see it toned down.


Day 1 of sufferfest for me so please go easy. If the power numbers have changed then surely the target of that workout has also changed IE; has an anaerobic workout suddenly become a threshold workout etc?

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No the changes are more subtle than that so they don’t change the intention.

And welcome to Sufferlandria :slight_smile:


9H does appear to have changed for me too. 0.98 IF before and 0.92 now. E.g. The final, final kick is now about 20W below the last time I did it (or tried to).

I guess this is a personal thing but I’m quite happy about that!

Some of these sessions (in my opinion) were only possible if you did it with settings that didn’t actually reflect your fitness levels. I.e. if you’d done a recent 4DP or HM you had no chance of getting to the end at 100%


I would also be interested to understand the reasoning behind this. Just compared the IF on the old and new apps and can see at least a dozen videos where this has happened. Some by just a point or two but others quite significantly.

The Omnium (one of my favourites) has dropped from 0.97 to 0.88!

I haven’t fully checked the workouts side by side but I can see the targets for the Kilo have been reduced by approx 10%


Hi @sir_james.p and all,

As you have noticed, there have been some adjustments made to many of the Sufferfest sessions in SYSTM. There are 24 SUF workouts that were not changed in any way, but 23 have been adjusted (not including any mashups in either of those counts).

The primary reason that I personally made the adjustments to the 23 workouts was that our sports science team reviewed all of our workouts from various physiological models (with heavy computational lifting from @Coach.Mac.C including W’ analysis of anaerobic capacity, predicted oxygen consumption and oxygen deficit, TSS, and Intensity Density of all of our sessions) as well as looking at completed workout compliance to see where users typically have issues completing sessions.

While you will see some reductions in TSS in those 23 adjusted workouts, none of them are easy. It is important to keep in mind that training does not need to be maximal to be effective. In fact, having workouts that are possible to be completed without completing depleting yourself is in fact much better in the long run.

Being able to consistently finish workouts is better for building physical capacity and confidence than is continually hitting a point of failure. You can see an analogy of this philosophy in use by Eluid Kipchoge - the best marathon runner - with references to these ideas at: Brad Stulberg Reveals More About 'Groundedness' and Getting Ahead

Also, keep in mind that any TSS value for any workout (and the associated changes) will vary for each user based on their unique 4DP. The concept of Intensity-Density that we are working on is going to be a much better representation of training load/intensity than TSS…but still isn’t completely ready to be included…but stay tuned!


It doesn’t take much of a tweak to drop IF significantly. But as for the reasoning, several were adjusted to correct their finish-ability.

They are still bloody hard, but now doable for all rider types. The tweaks are different depending on an individual’s rider type. Or at least that’s my understanding.

And being finishable means that the correct training stimulus is provided as well as the confidence boost of a finished workout vs failing to complete it. There was a study done on that of twins who were given workouts designed to make you fail vs ones that were designed to be barely completed. Maybe someone has the link.

Anyway, this is in line with the science behind the suffering, to get the maximum benefit out of each workout, including the mental aspects.


I can attest to AVDP still being very dark. I had to turn it down in the 4th dark place and back up for the 5th, but had nothing left in the tank to stand on the final sprint. It didn’t help that on the old app today would have been a day off so I did legs at the gym yesterday. Then the new app and plan threw a curve at me.


I just DIED on Joyride. My new MAP numbers meant it was impossible for me to hold targets today. The SUFFERING remains painful!