Hi I have just been looking at a few Youtube clips where people have recorded their 4DP test and been brave enough to show their results. The pie chart shows each of the metrics as moderate, good, very good or exceptional. This got me thinking… is age factored into those figures? for example say you had a 20 year old athlete with exactly the same profile as a 70 year old and both got the same results from their test. If the 20 year old had a good MAP for example on the pie chart surely if a 70 year hit the same figures he/she should be a lot more than just good?? Is that how it works or is it just a flat assessment regardless of how old you are? I ask because I have my first 4DP coming up on Friday and I am 68.
Very good question @ozmadman. I always thought the MAP value was good or exceptional or whatever if it hits a particular relationship to your FTP value. So if your MAP is only 5% above your MAP it would not be good. But it would be good if it was, say 40% above FTP. But that’s only my guessing since I’m not a coach. But I would be interested in the correct answer as well (only being in my 40s ).
The thing is, is that an FTP of say 4 watts per kilo for a 20 year old would be good but exceptional I would have thought for a 70 year old so we are still stuck with the same scenario!. I was just using MAP as an example bu the same applies to all of the 4DP metrics.
I understand what you mean @ozmadman. I was just referring to the fact that I guess that categorization as “good” or “better” is based on FTP as a reference. But since I am not a coach nor the inventor of 4DP, I suppose it would be better to flag the question to @Coach.Neal.H and @Coach.Mac.C.
exactly this, age shouldn’t be a factor since the three slices of your “pie” (NM, AC, MAP) are in relation to YOUR FTP. So your age is already factored into what you’re capable of for your FTP.
It is based on a relationship between the various values and they don’t change with age. However, the basis is your FTP and that DOES change with age. So a 4W/kg at 20 might be mediocre but at 60 superb. If you study the basis of 4DP (Sir Neal is NOT the only one in this camp) you discover that the science is absolutely fascinating,
Sure, but the point for the OP is that your 4DP profile is a ratio based off your individual FTP. So excellent’s across the board in NM, AC, and MAP in relation to OP’s FTP as a 68yo holds the same relevence as that ratio applied to a 20yo’s FTP. Yeah the raw power numbers will likely be wildly disparate, but since the ratio is off your own individual FTP, then age is controlled for in the 4DP profile.
Exactly my point, my question has got over complicated. I understand all the above stuff but the pie chart seems to make no adjustment for age I am presuming. Simply put, if the chart shows, let’s say moderate for a 20 year old, then a 70 year old who has exactly the same results would still, I presume show moderate which isnt correct, so therefore forgetting all the watts per kilo stuff etc the pie chart comments whether modest or moderate etc does not take age into account. I would like to know, based on my age whether a certain effort was good or not and not to be lumped together with someone a third of my age
That’s not what 4DP was designed for. As was explained, the three other metrics are compared relative to your FTP so that the training you do can be tailored to your strengths and weaknesses since it’s not really possible to boil someone’s athletic capability down to a single number. I don’t think there was ever any intention of using it to compare between athletes. I’m sure there’s lots of research out there on how aerobic performance declines over time/age that you might be interested in, but 4DP was never intended as a measuring stick for that.
Why put them there at all then? Those four descriptions used are based or compared to who or what? A novice or a pro, an average cyclist or what as without knowing this they are meaningless. I would just like to know whether a certain effort was considered good, moderate or excellent BASED ON MY AGE and not on some generalised criteria from which we have no idea what those comments are based on or compared to whom. Maybe, I am not explaining myself clearly? Example. 4 watts per kg = good but one athlete is 20 and the other is 70 so surely the 70 year olds result should read better than good?
@ozmadman Check out intervals.icu. They have the graphs that you are looking for. You can also compare training seasons as well.
The ‘moderate’, ‘good’ etc desciptive assessments is relative to ones own tested FTP with regards to the other 3 metrics. Not to be used as a comparison to others.
Two 20 year old athletes can end up with different decriptive assessments as one with a 35% MAP over FTP will likely have a very good/exceptional tag whilst the other with a 10-15% MAP over FTP will likely have a moderate tag, regardless of their FTP numbers, but based on the relationship of their MAP to their own FTP, not to a 20 year olds FTP.
Apply the same principle to any age and/or the other two metirs of AC and NM.
This will answer ultimately what you are looking for to see your tested efforts relative to a population. 4DP does not address your OP.
[quote=“Dan, post:12, topic:18969”]
The ‘moderate’, ‘good’ etc descriptive assessments is relative to ones own tested FTP with regards to the other 3 metrics. Not to be used as a comparison to others.
[/quote] Right ok got it thanks, just wanted to know whether my FTP and other metrics were good etc for my age but all this is doing is assessing how good my MAP, AC, NM in relation to my FTP whatever that is
Use what @JSampson sent you as that population of 4000 odd people will gauge where you fit in to your specific query.
I do suggest you race events and see how you place in your age group. That’s a real world application of what your numbers are. And how good you are for your age when seeing where you place on GC.
@Dan Good idea and I wonder if RGT online races tell a rider how they place relative to age group and if not it might be something to incorporate.
Can you @RGT-FB-Moderator give any direction in this regard, and maybe assist @ozmadman if he is not RGT ready
Thanks for those suggestions. Wahoo Systm is my first ever structured training plan. I have never used Zwift or anything else mainly because of the costs of all of the subscriptions being retired and living on state pension. I have only just (well at the end of this week) completed the 12 week all purpose plan, hence my 4DP coming up in two days time. I have only been training properly for about a year (just doing my own thing before joining Systm 12 weeks ago. I haven’t used RGT as yet as I didn’t want to interrupt my training plan so that would be a new learning curve for me as I will now need to create a future plan myself based on my results. I did the Half Monty halfway through my plan and my stats were FTP 3.23 wkg MAP 4 wkg AC 5.10 wkg NM 9.80 wkg I am nearly 69 years old and weigh 61kgs. I realise a couple of those are estimated but aiming for 3.5wkg if possible. thanks for all of your help
@ozmadman Those numbers look good - you should be proud of them. Here is a thread that might provide some help in preparing for the 4DP test:
There are also videos that you can watch to help get started with RGT.
FWIW: (almost 70) So far, for testing, I’ve always done the 7 day Half Monty+Full Frontal test plan. The HM sets the suggested targets for the level mode FF, and I try to just beat them. I do it before/between/after 4 week training blocks, so they wind up being ~5 weeks. I feel this gives me a very solid reproducible result. The test plan is also a solid week of training, so def not a throwaway.
Hi I posted this a few days ago " I did the Half Monty halfway through my plan and my stats were FTP 3.23 wkg MAP 4 wkg AC 5.10 wkg NM 9.80 wkg I am nearly 69 years old and weigh 61kgs."
Today I did the 4DP full frontal, it was crucifying but was so pleased with my results that I am posting them on here!! NM 747 watts (12.12wkg) AC 332 watts (5.44wkg) MAP 250 watts (4.10 wkg) and FTP 213 watts (3.49 wkg) nearly hit my goal of 3.50 wkg FTP!!! My weakness according to the app is my MAP so need to work on my VO2 but not surprising as I was a heavy smoker until 28 years of age!!