What's next for Systm?

SYSTM Content
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@mannybike There are a lot of very good NoVids. It is the largest catalog in the library. I have managed to watch must of the Olympics cycling events, the TDF (both M and F) and the Vuelta while doing NoVids along with movies and shows and a lot of YouTube.

One issue for me is that the Sufferfest videos contain a lot more intensity than I prefer for my training volume and also require a separate warmup and cooldown so I find it easier just to use the NoVids or a programmed workout that I download to my bike computer.

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Does SYSTM provide what you need for the amount of money you pay?
For me it does, and so long as it does I will keep my subscription.

If it does for you, you should stay, irrespective of how much new content there is.

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@Heretic Doubt that is the case. Look again at the DC Rainmaker interview - minute 25. Chip goes into all of the technical debt that they have and specifically with the player. An updated player allows them to integrate Apple TV.

They are also still investing in content as evidenced by the various workouts that have come out this year.

I know your background was in IT. Given all of the financial issues in 2023, layoffs of engineers presumably and then new investors coming in and rebuilding the bench and also launching new products - how long is realistic to getting back to being on the front foot for a company the size of Wahoo? It is probably a “how long is a piece of string question” given that you don’t know exactly their amount of technical debt and where they are in the transition but perhaps you have some helpful perspective.

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I listened to that interview when it came out. I will be convinced when I see that long promised new player. I have not seen any real improvements in other parts of the software.

As for the new content, it is the bare minimum of investment, and they are not the Sufferfest videos we all came to love. The fact they laid off the people that produced them, and that they changed the name of the Tour tells you a great deal.

The silence of Wahoo to its most loyal customer base on the forum is also telling.

I will still subscribe as I see the value, but the other platforms are catching up.

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I can only speak for myself, but I was stoked with the font change in the recent update. I won’t be going anywhere.

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@Heretic Neither you nor I have that information. Some may have left because they made a career decision. Another consideration is that the banks took over the company at some point before the buyback so if you were an employee with any stock or options then you may have lost a significant part of your compensation.

Not sure what this means. Those yearning for more Sufferfest workouts are certainly the most outspoken in the forum but does that represent the majority of users on SYSTM? Wahoo has the data on what workouts are popular so they are likely making decisions based on that data.

I can understand that. Perhaps we will see more as we move into the northern hemisphere indoor training season. What is interesting is that there have been a lot of changes to the Wahoo app. I have been using that a bit more and like the direction that it is going.

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Well they did not hire any people to do new classic Sufferfest videos.

Nobody seems to reply to feature requests, or tries to give us encouragement that more software improvements are on the horizon. If the types of videos they are creating are based on what people are actually riding, then there is no future in classic Sufferfest.

I do not use the app, so I do not know to what you are referring.

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Or .ZWO file them into Zwift if you have it

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@Heretic Going back to this point do you really think that is true?

For an on location workout you have travel to the location, cost to stay while the footage is made, drone permits, paying someone on an e-bike with a camera keeping up with Mike, then the post video processing - editing it together, sound, color processing etc. I am sure I am leaving something out.

For most Sufferfest videos there isn’t an on location expense or camera man. There likely is the expense of stock footage, licensing music and race footage but to me making those videos seems more straightforward. Frankly with a good story line and some perfected editing skills I suspect a number of us could put together the video.

Also looking at the number of workouts in the library NoVids has far and away the most with some of those being running workouts.

NoVids - 163
Sufferfest - 56
Inspiration - 60
Wahoo Fitness - 21 (arguably some of these are actually Sufferfest workouts)
On Location - 35
ProRides - 19
AWW - 22

So it is actually a fairly balanced catalogue and also much of this content has actually been created within the past 2 to 3 years as part of the move from Sufferfest to SYSTM.

So this makes me wonder what do those that ask again and again for more Sufferfest really want? Is one video a year enough? What about an update to an older video - does that count? Do they have to be HIIT with racing and techno music or could they be something like To Get to the Other Side which is basically an OL with music with a nice long warmup and cooldown and actually has some jazz music on it’s soundtrack. Trying to understand what is missing for folks as I feel like the workout catalogue is actually really good.

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The last Sufferfest video was High Time, released in November of 2023.

I have personally have nothing against On Location or No Vids, but they are not what brought us to the platform here. I can get No Vids elsewhere, and many platforms offer rough equivalents to On Location.

I think people also appreciated the presence of coaches in the forum.

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More Sufferfest. It’s pretty clear really.

And I don’t think this is nearly as straightforward as you suggest, Sir. If it were, it would be done. It’s an art and there’s nothing else out there like it in the entire indoor cycling space. Sir David, in that sense, was an artist and Sir Francois unquestionably was that too. It takes a very special person to understand the culture of Sufferlandria, to combine a killer workout (even if it’s a recovery one, like Recharger) with the right amount of humour. Timing the text prompts/digs/mocking etc so perfectly with when it’s needed that will bring a smile to our faces even though we might feel like our legs are gonna fall off, or our hearts are going to explode.

I enjoy the SUF type OL vids like TGTTOS, or GAWI or TWO precisely because there’s music to keep you going. This is what the Pro-Rides are missing imho, and this is sadly missing in the OL vids which, afaic, are largely unrepeatable after doing them once. And I LOVE Sir Standsalot!

While I, and I imagine many others, appreciate the depth of workouts available in the No-Vid category, and the breadth of workouts available when combining the whole cycling catalogue. There are VERY few workouts outside of SUF that I find myself wanting to do again and again. That’s why we keep asking for them again and again. That’s why it is with such great sadness that I personally experienced the sense of loss when Sir David and Sir Francois left The Company.

How many is enough?
1 a year would be fine with me. Though 2 would be better.

Also, as you point out, there are some cycling vids in the Wahoo Fitness category that are arguably SUF vids and those could “easily” be made into full on SUF vids by the right person with the right set of skills and understanding of what makes SUF, SUF. Vids like: Cadence Builds, Primers and Standing Starts are begging to be completed. The vids are there, some of the text is there too, just need the well timed tunes to match the efforts.

And, for the love of GvA, can we put Tapers back into the SUF catalogue. It was given the full SUF treatment and really deserves to take its rightful place there. And, then there’s EOS. While I always struggle, and generally just refuse to do single leg drills, the history of SUF is in the opening Star Wars type sequence. That really ought to go back to the SUF catalogue too.

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Whether you like NoVids or not, they represent very very little in the way of investment in Systm by Wahoo. It takes very little effort to create a Novid. Anybody can quickly and easily create a workout in minutes in most training apps, including Zwift.

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I have done MAP Progression 5 six times, and I do plan do it again and again. It was the type of workout that was mentioned in a podcast as effective for VO2 max.

Then again, I can import the workout into Rouvy, so I have scenery to look at, and I can play some music.

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There’s others that I’d do as well. I can do workouts while looking at something else, I just don’t “want” to. :slight_smile:

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It is just that Coach Neal recommended that one as being effective for VO2 max development so I “willingly” go back to it.

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100%. I understand.

Just to be clear, I actually enjoy some of the No-Vids. They’d be more enjoyable as SUF vids. I’m thinking of Micro Rangers iirc

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Maybe something like Blender, or The Chores, or dare I say “Revolver” or “Defender” might fit that workout.

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@Saddlesaur They have always been there - even during the Sufferfest app days and I think Wahoo needs them to have a comprehensive library. Not everyone is using the SYSTM app since there is the option to take it outside or export to Zwift, Rouvy, etc.

I have actually gravitated towards them and away from Sufferfest workouts which is part of the reason I was asking about why the need for more workouts in that category. I am doing a lot more endurance these days and when I do HIIT I generally sandwich it between a long warmup and cooldown. Seems to be working based on my most recent race results.

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#anythingbutdefender

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I could not resist the suggestion, but it does seem to fit.